@Vstakan You don’t know that. To truly know it, you would have to achieve nibbana. No amount of analysis or argumentation is going to taste that particular mango. You actually need to taste it to know it.
Furthermore, if nibbana is described as total-and-complete-cessation, mental-death, vegetative-state, then how can one know anything from such a state? How would you even know you were in such a state, apart from noting the time before and after. Is such a state of any use?
Does true understanding of the three marks come before, after or at the same time as nibbana?
Does a true understanding of rebirth come before, after or at the same time as nibbana?
Does a true understanding of Kamma come before, after or at the same time as nibbana?
Does a true understanding of DO come before, after or at the same time as nibbana?
Does a true understanding of ‘what had to be done is done’ come before, after or at the same time as nibbana?
Does a true understanding of the following come before, after or at the same time as nibbana:
His heart, thus knowing, thus seeing, is released from the fermentation of sensuality, the fermentation of becoming, the fermentation of ignorance. With release, there is the knowledge, ‘Released.’ He discerns that ‘Birth is ended, the holy life fulfilled, the task done. There is nothing further for this world.’ dn2
That’s a good point, and it works both ways: we don’t know whether there is no observation, we don’t know whether there is observation. Basically, when you say I have to taste Nibbana to know it, you imply that it has a taste, that it is an entity. I say that it is possibly a non-entity, absence of taste, absence of something, just like absence of fire is not an actual entity but merely absence of fire. No amount of argumentation can refute this view as well. Just as no amount of argumentation can prove that the transcendent God is One or Trinity, becaus he is transcendent. However, Mat’s question was whether the entity-interpretation is the only one possible, not whether it is false. I think it is pretty obvious it is not the only one. If it is the correct interpretation, I don’t know. If there is some observation in Nibbana, it is so different to anything we can experience, from the five khandhas, that it doesn’t make any sense to us. Thus, it is best not to theorize about it, because it will be conducive to papanca, not practice, which is why perhaps one of the reasons why Tathagata’s fate after death is one of the unanswered questions.
How do you know you were in a state of deep sleep? The analogy is not perfect, but it’s clear. And as the Ven. Sariputta said ‘it is the absence of feeling that is pleasant’, just as the absence of pain is pleasant when compared to pain. And if it bothers you, then, as Ven. Sujato once wrote, it’s great, it means it’s starting to really sink in
Okay, so this is now going to be a bit technical, but whatever. Nibbana is defined in the Suttas as being of two kinds: saupadisesa nibbana (nibbana with fuel remaining) and anupadisesa nibbana (nibbana with no fuel remaining). The former is fairly consitently defined as the ending of greed, hatred, and delusion. The latter is described as the ‘cooling down’ of the aggregates, their remainderlesss fading away. Up until that point we were talking about anupadisesa nibbana and, possibly, perception of ideas about both kinds of Nibbana.
The questions you asked, however, clearly refer to the saupadisesa nibbana, i.e. the mere ending of greed, hatred, and delusion. What follows is just one possible interpretation. These three unwholesome roots are destroyed with the Noble Eightfold Path, including Right Mindfulness and Right Samadhi. A meditator can achieve such high levels of concentration that all perception and feeling ends. After leaving this state, provided he exercizes True Mindfulness, he will directly see the true characteristics of the world: anatta, anicca, dukkha - just as we finally notice glasses on our nose after we take it off for a minute. Seeing that, he or she realizes that the saupadisesa nibbana has been reached, greed, hatred, and delusion have been eradicated. As for kamma and rebirth, the Ariyapariyesana Sutta describing the Buddha’s own enlightenment places them definitely before Nibbana. And what concernce DO, I don’t know, but this is again a bit irrelevant since we are talking about the saupadisesa Nibbana in any case, and the OP was about the anupadisesa Nibbana, i.e. what happens after Tathagata’s death.
I guess the descriptions of Nibbana seems to suggest that it is not just an absence but that Nibbana does ‘exist’ (without making an object out of it, though it is difficult not to). What happens after the Arahanth’s death is pure metaphysical speculation. It’s not worth discussing IMO as we can almost project anything on to it. But more to the point is the cessation of phenomena while in this life. If the dhamma is not dependent on time (ie waiting until the death of the arahanth) then there has to be a way to verify it, here and now. The ending of suffering is not a matter for faith but observation - as in stopping of. The stone skipping over phenomenon is an indication that the path does work and following the path phenomena and hence all suffering ceases. It’s an imperfect experience as (IMO) some refined defilements are still pulling the mind out and infrequently perceptions arise. However in an arahanth the experience is uninterrupted. They are able to determine when they emerge out of it prior to adverting into it. There is a story that in the so called cessation attainment (Nirodhasamapatti) the monk was mistakenly thought to have died when he hadn’t!
But the saupadisesa is not defined as cessation of phenomena in this very life, it is defined as cessation of greed, hate and delusion, the fading away of asavas and kilesas. It means you still experience phenomena, you just don’t have experience of greed, hate and delusion, and that can be checked any moment. In other words, Nibbana in this very life doesn’t mean the absence of everything, it means the extinguishment of very particular experience (or maybe experience of a particular extinguishment), just as the absence of fire or water in your experience or the absence of body experience in the formless jhanas. I think that what you said is a valid point if we specify he exact meaning of the saupadisesa nibbana. So, in some sense Nibbana exists as the experience of extinguishment (or extinguishment of a particular experience), in the other sense it is just like the absence of fire - it is real, but it is not ‘something’. And as for the anupadisesa Nibbana, I completely agree that this is useless to talk about it
“When, brahmin, one experiences the remainderless destruction of lust, the remainderless destruction of hatred, and the remainderless destruction of delusion, it is in this way, too, that nibbāna is directly visible, immediate, inviting one to come and see, applicable, to be personally experienced by the wise.”
There is that dimension, monks, where there is neither earth, nor water, nor fire, nor wind; neither dimension of the infinitude of space, nor dimension of the infinitude of consciousness, nor dimension of nothingness, nor dimension of neither perception nor non-perception; neither this world, nor the next world, nor sun, nor moon. And there, I say, there is neither coming, nor going, nor staying; neither passing away nor arising: unestablished,[1] unevolving, without support [mental object].[2] This, just this, is the end of stress.
No. I am NOT implying it is an entity. Just as taste is not an entity. I am implying that Nibbana is an experience of some kind, but obviously not a literal taste experience.
Nibbana is an experience. If you haven’t had that experience then you don’t know anything about it. You only have beliefs about it. Just as describing the taste of a mango is not the same as actually tasting a mango, in the same way, describing nibbana is not the same as experiencing nibbana.
So what is the point of the state you refer to? If the knowledge comes only before or after, then why bother entering the state?
So, first thing first. When you say that anupadisesa nibbana has a taste it means it has an ontological dimension beyond the mere cessation of the five khandhas (and every experience has it), than it is an entity. Even taste is entity as a phenomenon,=. Okay, I agree that ‘entity’ is possibly a poor term, let us rather say Nibbana is an existent. If and only if you postulate the status of anupadisesa nibbana as an exsitent you may say that it has an experiential aspect.
If and only if we assume from the very beginnig that the anupadisesa nibbana doesn’t have such a status, that it is nothing beyond extinguishment, we will have to conclude that there is no ‘taste’. There is no taste of tastelesness, there is no sound of silence, there is no not-burningness of a fire not burning. There being no unicorns doesn’t mean that there inexistence as an existent (oh, quickly became Heideggerian againm ouch!).
Both positions are absolutely logical and coherent and there is nothing wrong with both of them, but they both have a starting point, the initial postualtes ‘anupadisesa nibbana is an experience’ and ‘anupadisesa is not an experience’. Since Nibbana lies beyond our grasp as you rightly pointed out, there is no way to prove one or the other postulate wrong. Both assumptions produce more or less cogent interpretations of the Suttas, and this was what Mat asked about. It doesn’t matter what he or me or you think is correct, we cannot prove it anyway. If we cannot even say anything about the status of the anupadisesa nibbana as an existent, then why bother at all? This is I think one of the reasons why the Buddha never answered the question about Tathagata’s posthumous fate.
Because when we leave it we will be confronted with feeling and sensation that is suffering. You will never know what being healthy is if you were ill your entire life (not a completely isomorphic comparison, but I think you are getting the hang of it). And this ways the wisdom comes. My point is that according to this interpretation the insight into the true nature of existence will be impossible.
@Rajitha
Hi Rajitha,
I don’t know about the entire mass of suffering but the suffering of moving into a new apartment (rented till August only, but everything is impermanent ) is finally over for me. So, my fiancée and me are going to celebrate it a bit, and since this celebration may or may not involve breaking the fifth precept, I’d rather answer you when I have more time (maybe on Sunday, I am having a couple of things planned for tomorrow): writing this comment will surely involve some good old Pali digging and Sutta referencing, so clear mindfulness is very advisable
I was not talking about anupadisesa nibbana. I was talking about saupadisesa nibbana (nibbana with fuel remaining) or nibbanna in this very lifetime.
That is not really a coherent statement.
As I understand it, saupadisesa nibbana in this very life means seeing the truth of: rebirth, kamma and DO. That also entails seeing the truth of the three marks. With all that also comes the knowledge of liberation.
You seem to be saying that saupadisesa nibbana is some just some type of temporary mental death and perception death with no knowledge or insight at all . If it was that, then it would be pointless.
Unless there is a cessation of feeling and perception, then there we are not.
‘Oh, so that’s what the Buddha meant!’
Nibbana in this very lifetime means the experience of the destruction of greed, hatred and delusion (AN 3.55), so yeah the saupadisesa nibbana is an experience, but a person experiencing it is not meditating in the ‘ninth jhana’ or levitating in the Brahma heaven, this is true.
Okay, you never mentioned it, it was added by me and was not intended to be understood as your opinion. There was no malicious intent behind this particular statement.
My intent was to make a point that the experience of the saupadisesa nibbana in my view does not necessarily arise when abiding in lofty meditation states or exalted realms like that of Brahma. Whether this was relevant or smart (I now think it kind of was), is another thing.
Does true understanding of the three marks come before, after or at the same time as nibbana? - see SN22.59 - it comes before stream entry. Three marks lead to repulsion, leads to dispassion, which in turn leads to cessation (the fruit of stream entry).
Does a true understanding of rebirth come before, after or at the same time as nibbana? - This is not a must. Only some arahanths will have the ‘three knowledges’ (tevijja) which includes seeing past lives. Even those who are not Stream entrants can see past lives. Non-Buddhists can see past lives as can little children sometimes! Sometimes with hypnotic regression from a past life therapist. So it would come before attaining Nibbana.
Does a true understanding of Kamma come before, after or at the same time as nibbana? Again before. But this is rarer than the past life knowledge. it is one of the ‘three knowledges’.
Does a true understanding of DO come before, after or at the same time as nibbana? True understanding of the Four Noble Truths can come only after seeing Nibbana (st stream entry). To know that the Noble Eightfold Path leads to Nibbana (and experience Nibbana) the path must be completed. It is only then we will know-as a Truth- that the path ‘works’. The forward version of the DO is the 2nd Noble Truth. The ceasing version is the third Noble Truth. A person may understand basic principles of the DO and taste specific conditionality (idapaccayata) but lack the vocabulary to explain what happened post the nibbanic experience. Only a Buddha can truly discern their attainment. Also only the Buddha will see the DO in depth. If someone can’t see past life’s it is unlikely they will truly visually see their past life DO links (or other people’s links). So seeing a few links is enough.
Does a true understanding of ‘what had to be done is done’ come before, after or at the same time as nibbana? After wards. There is what is called ‘reviewing knowledge’ (paccavekkhana nana) that arises after the attainment.
Does a true understanding of the following come before, after or at the same time as nibbana -…birth is finished etc: Afterwards. No cognitive activity (Sankhara) is active as they have ceased.
Correct! There are two types of arahanths. Those released through wisdom (pannavimutti) and those released both ways (ubathobaghiya). Both have form jhanas. The latter had formless jhanas as well and can experience cessation Isi this life, going past the formless realm into nirodhasamapatti. Yet the former as fully understood enlightened as well. For the descriptions of not having craving, aversion and delusion fits. For the latter descriptions of cessation fits. Both explanations can ‘exist’ side by side!
In an ‘ultimate reality’ sense there are only dhammas arising and passing away based on causes and effects. There are no selves, trees, mountains etc. Those are conventional perceptions based on ignorance. This doesn’t mean we cannot switch between talking in a conventional way or in terms of ultimate reality as needed. It is said the Buddha often used the term ‘I’ and indeed all conversation and even teaching the dhamma would be impossible without conventional language!
) is finally over for me. So, my fiancée and me are going to celebrate it a bit, and since this celebration may or may not involve breaking the fifth precept, I’d rather answer you when I have more time (maybe on Sunday, I am having a couple of things planned for tomorrow): writing this comment will surely involve some good old Pali digging and Sutta referencing, so clear mindfulness is very advisable 
