Oh no he does not. Please read MN1.
Sorry to disappoint you but I don’t have any confirmation for your speculation about my feeling.
You do not understand it.
You are not able to discuss things with me in a fair, open, respectful way but are always only intend on accusing me of wrong ideas, wrong views, wrong understanding.
I think you have already made enough illustrations so far for showing how it looks like about “craving and clinging for nibbana”. So i suggest that you should stop making more illustrations.
Buddha teaches that we can make use of desire and conceit. At this moment i do not know this sutta reference, but i am sure it is there. @paul1 also sometime refered to this sutta.
Yes, we must not see anything as me and mine, not grasp, not identify and than you are yourself You have arrived home. Buddha was looking for a home and found it there. Finally you do not self-alienate anymore and live in a broken world. You have found yourself, meaning wholeness, completeness, home, Nibbana in this live. How? Because you do not see anything as me and mine. That is being yourself, home, at peace.
Please remember that this is a place of peaceful discussion.
I have helped by taking out any such reference to self.
Try to read again your message above (after editing out) and see how it is now clear and makes sense.
Picking up such a self is redundant in your message and that will surely bring suffering as we all have already seen with all the craving and clinging.
I think we can safely say that Nibbana isn’t Atman or Brahman.
I feel Guy Eugene Dubois, who studies Pali texst and translates them into Dutch, and posts regurly in boeddhistische dagblad (dutch online buddhist newspaper), is right when he talks about, or uses the word Self-realisation as the goal of Dhamma. Please stay with me for a moment. Are you gone allready?
I believe this does not mean that one follows some doctrine of Self but one abandons gradually what is not yours. It is like going to the core of oneself.
I felt the need to clarify this: going to the core oneself is just an expression. It means: going to ones essential nature, not as a soul, not as an atman, but exactly like water that is purified from all what is adventitious to it, comes to its essence. When those defilements are removed the nature of water reveals itself as it is.
The same with the purification of mind. The nature of mind is not seen for what it is when adventitious defilements (tanha, asava, anusaya) cause disturbance. It swholeness, its completeness, its egolessness, its peace, its emptiness, is not seen or tasted.
I believe this is also why we start seeking for happiness outside us in the first place.
But while we do this, this nature of mind even gets more hidden for us. The truth of the end of suffering gets even more hidden while we defile ourselves.
So do you see this essential nature or purified mind as impersonal?
Would my purified mind be the same as yours?
I see the essential nature as egolessness, without attachment, and in that sense impersonal, because grasping makes things personal.
I feel there is no difference between you and me on the level of purified mind, and also not between animal, deva and hell being.
Here are some words on Nibbana from Ajahn Pannavaddho from a book called uncommon wisdom
“The way of Buddhism leads toward absolute truth. The only way to reach there is to adapt the mind’s state accordingly. If we adapt the mind’s level to that of absolute truth, then we can experience absolute truth. The purpose of Buddhist training is to reach that point. The absolute truth is Nibbāna, of course. So we have to adjust the mind to the conditions that lead to Nibbāna. When we have incorporated those conditions into the mind, we will eventually reach the goal. Otherwise, we won’t succeed. The whole training points the way to Nibbāna”.
"Mostly, the defilements are on top. They’re the boss. It is only when we begin to see things as they really are that the Dhamma starts getting stronger. As the Dhamma gains strength, the defilements
have less chance to interfere. By persisting diligently in the practice of Dhamma—and it’s very hard work—one can eventually break through to a natural state of total freedom. The Buddha called it “Nibbāna.” Nibbāna is what we all really should be. It’s there within us all the time, but we just don’t recognize it. If we can clear away all traces of ignorance and defilements, what’s left will be Nibbāna.
“Nothing we experience is fixed and immutable; all is flowing and changing. Nibbāna is the one permanent reality that does not change”.
"Also, it isn’t that we destroy the self through meditation, but that we come to understand that the self is an illusion. No destruction of self takes place because there’s nothing to destroy. It’s rather like trying
to destroy a shadow. Seeing through the illusion, on the other hand, reveals the mind’s true nature. Fundamentally, the element of Nibbāna is there within us already. It must be there; if it wasn’t there already we couldn’t possibly reach it, because Nibbāna is not subject to arising"
“But regardless of individual temperament, Nibbāna is equally accessible to everyone. I’d say that Nibbāna is already there in everybody and everybody knows it, but they don’t recognize it. Intuitively, we know that there is something better than this world, but we don’t know what it is. So we search for it. Because we have an array of senses to work with, we tend to focus out in the direction of the senses, looking there for true happiness. Of course, that’s searching in the wrong direction”
"The ultimate goal, Nibbāna, is beyond the world, beyond attachment. The nature of Nibbāna is emptiness. When our consciousness is rooted in this world, however, we cannot become aware of emptiness. We have no means to know what it is. Instead, we hold tightly to perceptions of “me” and “mine,” so the world we live in is bound by artificial conditions. We are attached to a world of conditioned reality. Nibbāna, on the other hand, is totally unconditioned. At that level,
there is no difference between one person and another".
Nibbana is Buddha-dhatu “Buddha-nature”, which is empty of self or of anything belonging to self
I think this is a wrong start.
I think it is more like Ajahn Pannavaddho says: “Nibbāna is what we all really should be. It’s there within us all the time, but we just don’t recognize it”
Nibbana is cessation of becoming (bhavanirodho)
At that time I perceived that the cessation of continued existence is extinguishment.
Bhavanirodho nibbānan’ti saññī ca panāhaṁ, āvuso, tasmiṁ samaye ahosin”ti.
- AN 10.7
As to what bhava is, there’s a lot of interpretations, I like the phenomological interpretation by Ven Bodhesako Being and Craving – Path Press
Regardless of interpretation, stopping bhava requires stopping the 3 poisons, craving, clinging, identity view, and the fetters.
some words of venerable Maha Boowa on Nibbana, from the book ‘Forest Desana’s’:
“The one who has attained purity doesn’t have any problems. He is free from worry. Nibbānaṁ paramaṁ sukhaṁ—Nibbāna is the supreme bliss. Where do you find it? When the kilesas have all disappeared from the heart, that’s where you’ll find it. What else are you going to seek?
You have always been afflicted with dukkha because of the kilesas. But after the kilesas have all disappeared, where are you going to find any dukkha? And where are you going to look for Nibbāna? If you’re still deluded, you will still seek it. But after you have become enlightened, you won’t look for it any more. Nibbānaṁ paramaṁ sukhaṁ is eternal. The Lord Buddha said that Nibbāna is permanent. When the heart has attained absolute contentment, and has let go of all sammati, it won’t be upset by any problems, because it is totally devoid of them. What problems can there be? Living or dying poses no problem because they are part of nature. This heart has transcended all the problems of the world”
"You’re human beings like them. Although you might not possess any supernatural power, you at least have the power to subdue and destroy the kilesas. You must really commit yourselve be really resolute and earnest. The magga, phala, and Nibbāna are rights here within your heart, but you just let the kilesas trample all over you. Not to be able to enjoy the taste of the Dhamma is really a shame for a
practitioner. You tend to let yourselves be dragged away by the kilesas all the time. So you should be very strict with yourselves’
“After the kilesas have been vanquished, then there is no need to ask where Nibbāna is”
"What is it that is given the name Nibbāna, if not the purified citta? What else could it be? You have to purify your citta, and after you have done that, you will have no doubt. After you die, where will you be? If you’ve attained Nibbāna, this will not be an issue. It will only be an issue for those who still have the kilesas. Wherever they are, they will always be devoured by the kilesas. It is not Nibbāna that afflicts the world but the kilesas’
A small selection of fragments. Maybe later some more.
Maha Boowa adviced not to really worry about Nibbana but especially to use satipanna, mindfulness and wisdom, to destroy the kilesa’s. Panna does not feed the kilesa’s.
@Green, This is an EBT forum, so I am asking: In the following, could we not better focus on the EBTs, without including what are considered later sources?
Also, I presented my points in a consistent logic that can be backed up by EBT, so normally I expect you to do the same without relying on belief or appealing to feeling/emotion.
I just downloaded it from here
Great book. Thanks.
If a person sees the purified citta is Nibbana then he sees the purified citta as permanent, uncondition, and that is what he wants to become or he wants his citta to become. He tries to purify his citta so after death his citta will become Nibbana and he will be Nibbana or he will be in Nibbana.
The purified mind-base is not Nibbana. It is what it is. If it still clings to anything even Nibbana then it is not free from sufferings.
He perceives Nibbāna as Nibbāna. Having perceived Nibbāna as Nibbāna, he conceives himself as Nibbāna, he conceives himself in Nibbāna, he conceives himself apart from Nibbāna, he conceives Nibbāna to be ‘mine,’ he delights in Nibbāna. Why is that? Because he has not fully understood it, I say. (MN1)
I think at this point, speaking in terms of things no longer works. I don’t see how we can separate the knowing (of nibbana) from what is known (nibbana) as they must arise together - and there we are back in the world of things.