Nibbāna is NOT self

some words of venerable Maha Boowa on Nibbana, from the book ‘Forest Desana’s’:

“The one who has attained purity doesn’t have any problems. He is free from worry. Nibbānaṁ paramaṁ sukhaṁ—Nibbāna is the supreme bliss. Where do you find it? When the kilesas have all disappeared from the heart, that’s where you’ll find it. What else are you going to seek?
You have always been afflicted with dukkha because of the kilesas. But after the kilesas have all disappeared, where are you going to find any dukkha? And where are you going to look for Nibbāna? If you’re still deluded, you will still seek it. But after you have become enlightened, you won’t look for it any more. Nibbānaṁ paramaṁ sukhaṁ is eternal. The Lord Buddha said that Nibbāna is permanent. When the heart has attained absolute contentment, and has let go of all sammati, it won’t be upset by any problems, because it is totally devoid of them. What problems can there be? Living or dying poses no problem because they are part of nature. This heart has transcended all the problems of the world”

"You’re human beings like them. Although you might not possess any supernatural power, you at least have the power to subdue and destroy the kilesas. You must really commit yourselve be really resolute and earnest. The magga, phala, and Nibbāna are rights here within your heart, but you just let the kilesas trample all over you. Not to be able to enjoy the taste of the Dhamma is really a shame for a
practitioner. You tend to let yourselves be dragged away by the kilesas all the time. So you should be very strict with yourselves’

“After the kilesas have been vanquished, then there is no need to ask where Nibbāna is”

"What is it that is given the name Nibbāna, if not the purified citta? What else could it be? You have to purify your citta, and after you have done that, you will have no doubt. After you die, where will you be? If you’ve attained Nibbāna, this will not be an issue. It will only be an issue for those who still have the kilesas. Wherever they are, they will always be devoured by the kilesas. It is not Nibbāna that afflicts the world but the kilesas’

A small selection of fragments. Maybe later some more.

Some remarks:

Maha Boowa adviced not to really worry about Nibbana but especially to use satipanna, mindfulness and wisdom, to destroy the kilesa’s. Panna does not feed the kilesa’s.

@Green, This is an EBT forum, so I am asking: In the following, could we not better focus on the EBTs, without including what are considered later sources?

Also, I presented my points in a consistent logic that can be backed up by EBT, so normally I expect you to do the same without relying on belief or appealing to feeling/emotion.

1 Like

I just downloaded it from here

Great book. Thanks.

1 Like

If a person sees the purified citta is Nibbana then he sees the purified citta as permanent, uncondition, and that is what he wants to become or he wants his citta to become. He tries to purify his citta so after death his citta will become Nibbana and he will be Nibbana or he will be in Nibbana.

The purified mind-base is not Nibbana. It is what it is. If it still clings to anything even Nibbana then it is not free from sufferings.

He perceives Nibbāna as Nibbāna. Having perceived Nibbāna as Nibbāna, he conceives himself as Nibbāna, he conceives himself in Nibbāna, he conceives himself apart from Nibbāna, he conceives Nibbāna to be ‘mine,’ he delights in Nibbāna. Why is that? Because he has not fully understood it, I say. (MN1)

2 Likes

I think at this point, speaking in terms of things no longer works. I don’t see how we can separate the knowing (of nibbana) from what is known (nibbana) as they must arise together - and there we are back in the world of things.

Nibbana is not something that arises and ceases. It is always there, if you reach it, you will attain it. When you completely run out of money, you are penniless person, but you are not that “penniless”. In other words, “penniless” is not you.

My bad. Please use ‘appears’ or ‘realized’.

It is the same, just different words.

Let me make another example, so you may see the point.

You used to have many debts and experienced a lot of sufferings because of them. Now you have no debt, you are happy. You are free from debt now, but if you borrow again then you are not free from them.

“Free from debt” is always there. It does not change. If you own no debt then you reach it. If you have debts, it does not go away, it does not cease to exist. It is not a thing that will show up for you to see or run away when you borrow again. You may not be free from debt now, but others may.

If you really want to discuss Dhamma with me, discuss, and not interrogate me, i am very open to that.

1 Like

seem pretty different to me:

-arise

intransitive verb

To get up, as from a sitting or prone position; rise.

To awaken and get up.

To move upward; ascend.

-appear

intransitive verb

To become visible.

To be shown or included.

To come into existence.

-realize

intransitive verb

To comprehend completely or correctly.

To bring into reality; make real.

To make realistic.

As an example:
There is a bucket of Viking gold buried in the ground. It was there long before I was born but I was not aware of it until I learned where to dig and put in the effort. It is perfectly legit (at least in American English)
To say that the gold appeared or that I realized it was there (at the time I dug it up). the vast majority of folks would not think that I was suggesting that it spontaneously appeared when I became aware of it.
In a similar way, a worldly person does not know of the unconditioned until they do the work and only then does it does. it become known to them.

You are aware of the gold does not mean that you are now the gold.
You realized the gold does not mean that your have become the gold.
Similarly, a worldly person realized the unconditioned does not mean that he is now the unconditioned or he has become the unconditioned.

Absolutely fascinating as I have never held or expressed such views. Aren’t minds such strange things?

Maybe I misunderstood your comment when I said: The purified mind-base is not Nibbana and you replied it with:

I thought that you want to say that we cannot separate the purified mind with Nibbana. That’s why I tried to show you that the purified mind does not always come with Nibbana. If it sees itself as Nibbana or in Nibbana or realizes itself in Nibbana or as Nibbana then it does not realize the true Nibbana. It may realize something else.

The whole point is to show that the purified citta is not Nibbana and it cannot become Nibbana.

When you said “they must arise *together”, even if I replace “arise” with “appears or realized” as you asked, it becomes “they must appear together” or "they must realize together. " I personally do not see they must be so. Nibbana is not a thing or a place to do so. The purified citta if it is still clinging to the “I, my” will not see Nibbana even if Nibbana is always available there.

Even if the purified mind that no longer cling to “I, my” and has attain Nibbana, it is not Nibbana and it also does not become Nibbana. It still can be changed since it is energy.

However, that’s all I can think. Sorry if I misunderstood your questions.

Maha Boowa also says, in ones practice one must only aim at weakening and removing defilements and not worry about the nature of Nibbana or parinibbana. In fact, speculating about it, or even thinking one knows its nature, is itself defilement (oeps)

The answers must not be fabricated by logic nor reasoning. Dhamma is beyond that. It is not really possible, as we proove here all that time, that doubts can be erased by logic and reasoning. It also does not lead to the kind of knowledge that liberates. Answers will be revealed while one does the work of uprooting those defilements. That seems to be the idea.

If one sees parinibbana as mere the cessation of the khandha’s, then one also gives priority to logic and reasoning. This is not Dhamma, i believe. I think one can better start from not-knowing.

Also if one sees parinibbana as a mere cessation of existence, the definitive cessation of any perception and feeling ever, without nothing remaining, and one sees this as happiness or even bliss, that is also an idea, a prospect. But why would one ever say that cessation of any perception and feeling is ultimate happiness or even bliss, while there is no happiness and bliss because all has ceased.

sorry, i can not let go this. It troubles my mind to much that people believe that Buddha-Dhamma has no other goal then going out like a flame without nothing remaining. I read the essay of Ajahn Brahmali on this topic. I will read it once more. I want to understand why people believe this.

Reading that essay i do not get much further than the impression that this makes sense, that does not make sense. It can be seen that way. It cannot. But what remains is that in fact nothing is attained, nothing is realised, there is no home, nowhere. There is no safe place. There is no refuge. There is only ceasing without anything remaining.

So the Buddha, while searching a home for himself…protection…safety, the other shore, realised at a certain moment is it not there? The other shore is not there. There is no place to arrive. There is only cessation?

Maha Boowas uses the word citta in a special way.

I think you know the sutta’s talk about Nibbana as the removal or destruction of lobha, dosa and moha. Do they not arise in the mind?

I seem to recall that Nibbana is a mind-object, something known to the mind. I’ll try to find the sutta.

It is good if we could understand what is that special way? I am not familiar with his teaching.

Lobha, dosa and moha (greed, hatred, delusion) arise in the mind because of the “I, my.” “It is so pleasant, I want more of that. It is so painful, I hate it…” The mind without “I, my” sees thing the way it is. “It is a pleasant feeling, it is an unpleasant feeling.” It turns away from all of those and stays in Nibbana.

I would like to use this post to clear some common wrong understandings.

1. Wrong understanding regarding a purified mind:

People with their imagination has fantasized a purified mind as something similar to:

Pure water with impurities. Or pure gold with impurities. Or like a diamond in a box and only that box is covered with impurities. Or like a mirror only reflects what shines upon it. Or like a moon always shines but only temporarily got covered by dark cloud. Or like a man with good eyes but his eyes got covered by a pair of bad spectacles.

In other words: They fantasize that the purified mind is always there inside each of us, separated from the impurities, not affected by the impurities. The purified mind only needs to know, that’s all.

So, people with such fantasy starts to see such a purified mind as NOT impermanent, pure, safe, NOT suffering. Then, people with such fantasy starts to consider such purified mind as themselves, shouting “Yay, that’s has been always me!” or “That’s belongs to me forever” or “That’s always inside me, timeless.” Then, people with such fantasy starts to consider such purified mind to be the same as Nibbāna.

The important thing is: We need to realize “to know” is a verb. A verb means: it’s a process. And a process means: it’s conditioned, it can NOT happen without supporting conditions. So, when the supporting conditions are not there, what happens? Answer: the process stops.

Now, when the process “to know” stops, the purified mind also stops being a purified mind. It becomes “a purified mind that does not know.” There, now anyone in their right mind can see for themselves, purified mind is impermanent. So, a purified mind can NOT be considered as self. There, of course, anyone in their right mind can also see for themselves, purified mind is NOT Nibbāna because Nibbāna is NOT impermanent.

For anyone still has doubt and still cannot abandon the fantasy idea that there exists a purified mind inside himself that always knows without supporting conditions, maybe they should ask themselves: Can they know anything without coming into contact?
For those people, my suggestion is: MN38 and MN14 are of very good help here.

In my opinion, it seems to me that such fantasy coming from a mind that is lazy. The reason is: with such fantasy, people all over the world no longer needs to practice the Noble Eightfold Path, their purified mind has always known and experienced Nibbāna, for all time, without any interruption.

2. Wrong understanding regarding reading secondary sources outside EBT:

There is also a misunderstanding when some teachers say something like “Nibbāna can be found inside you” or “Nibbāna is already inside each of us.”

I think the original message should be: “the capacity/potential to realize the Nibbāna, that specific capacity/potential is inside each of us.”

That message seems to be misunderstood when presented in another shortened form: “the capacity/potential to realize the Nibbāna inside each of us.”

3. Wrong understanding regarding faith toward favorite teacher/guru:

There is also a misunderstanding that you can place certain teacher/guru in a place higher than the Buddha. Then use their words to override the words of the Buddha in the EBT. We don’t have high confidence that such teacher/guru is really at arahant level but we DO have very high confidence that the Buddha and his disciples are at arahant level and their words are recorded in the EBT. If anyone does such thing, he/she is putting an unverified pupil above the verified teacher. I don’t think people will agree that such action is wise.

4. Wrong understanding regarding Nibbāna as nothing at all:

There is also a misunderstanding that Nibbāna is nothing at all or it does not even exist. It’s a Dhamma, a Reality, a real and verifiable state. Nibbāna was declared by the Buddha in the 3rd Noble Truth. However, it does not exist as the way a run-of-the-mill person so far has always imagined.

The difference with the neti-neti school (coming from tát tvam ási (That thou art - That you are)) is: The Buddha taught the Noble Eightfold Path to guide us to Nibbāna, which is not Self. Meanwhile, the neti-neti school holds a view even from the beginning that what remains after negation is the Self, before their practice of meditation. Side note, the following is my personal opinion so I am not open for debate right now on this: At the highest, with their meditation practice, anyone with such view will only be able to reach the formless realm of the Nothingness sphere.

5. Wrong understanding regarding logic and reasoning:

There is also a misunderstanding that we don’t need logic and reasoning. Logic and reasoning help us to choose the correct path, to separate the wholesome from the unwholesome, to separate the fool from the wise. I suggest anyone has such unhealthy doubt to look up in dictionary to know how people defines a person who denies logic and reasoning; or a person who denies solid evidence presented to him. I don’t see anywhere that the Buddha encourages us to abandon logic and reasoning while listening to his teaching.

Closing:

If after reading this post, anyone got questions pop up in their mind such as: Hmm, so now I am not too sure, do I have a self? So, you are telling me, I don’t really have a self? Do I actually currently exist right now? So, after all, do I got illusion, am I dreaming, do I not currently exist? Or putting up such question like: does the Buddha exist before/after his parinibbāna? Then I suggest that person please read again MN2 very carefully and thoroughly many times.

Thank you for your time reading this post. :pray:

Note: Please kindly only give comments with focus on the EBTs, without including what are considered later sources. Also, I presented my points in a coherent logic that can be backed up by EBT, so normally, I expect other people to kindly do the same without relying on personal belief or appealing to feeling/emotion.

Sounds very logic. I wish you happy.

The mind “turns away from all of those (feelings) and stays in Nibbana”.

Sounds good, but could you elaborate on what you mean by the mind staying “in” Nibbana?