SuttaCentral
I was re-watching this series of videos on Buddhist cosmology. I was reminded that talk on heaven and Hell, whilst unpopular in Buddhism today (in the West at least), was always stressed by the Buddha. So I wondered, why is it it’s not talked about so much in the these days, and also do members here believe in or think of Heaven and Hell when it comes to their Buddhism and practice? Is it something we should talk about more in Buddhism?
Venerable Analayo’s book on Prajnaparamita touches on the subject of Niraya, and how it seems to have evolved over time (rather problematically). I’ll post more on the subject when I have time to post my book notes in my other thread; but basically he traces how a brief “Bad place / suffering” meaning of Niraya has grown increasingly visual and controversial.
He gives the example of Hell Guardians - are they karmically active beings? Do they get bad karma for inflicting punishing on hell prisoners? Who tasked them with the job? Etc etc.
On the other hand, heavens are complex. For example, Asuras are kind of like heavenly beings, but also kind of devilish, so it makes it hard to categorise them specifically. One minute in the canon, we have Buddha challenging Mara saying he cares nothing for merit, next thing we know he praises merit to people - especially when it comes to supporting monastics. Makes one wonder. 
I think that’s one of the reasons people are wary of the Heaven and Hell accounts in the canon, at least to take them literally. To read them all literally, outside of a historical-critical perspective, has some issues that I can’t reconcile easily.
A practical approach that I found useful, is to treat them as explorations on how various forms of existence can be imagined, to observe just how close they are to one another, and just how dukkha it is to cling to one or another.
After all, the point is to overcome dukkha, and to avoid clinging to the sukkha. I find that Heaven & Hell accounts are colorful ways to help one visualise such ideas, but precisely the point is to abandon worrying about such things and being free of such ideas / places altogether.
If somebody has full faith in the full account of such descriptions in the canon, all the respect and more power to them.
Thanks 
Observed evolution of the concept of hell is rather in the eye of Ven Analayo. Some of the questions above are justified at least to that extent that we cannot be sure how to classified hell guardians, but I think there is no doubt that they are just as much responsible for their actions as any other beings. (Unless they are not beings at all but some automated aspects of hell).
But question “who tasked them with the job?” is rather strange for a Buddhist monk with some knowledge about Dhamma, and very strange for the observer of life. We see here and now plenty of beings who would be excited by the prospect of being employed in such position 
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I absolutely believe that hells & heavens exist. As for their exact nature it’s hard to say, are they fully mind-made or do they have some kind of matter? Who knows…
What I know is that I’d rather avoid being reborn in hell, and that it would be nice to be reborn in heaven (unless reach full liberation before haha). I think this is also true for all beings.
I think it should be discussed a lot, because this is real and a very important motivating factor to practice well. Fear of hell is like fear of wrongdoing (hiri ottapa), and prospect of heaven can be a glimpse into at least partial removal of dukkha, and also a beautiful reward for doing real good. It also shows the broader spectrum of reality than just our human/animal realm we see on everyday basis in material world of kama-loka.
Exactly what I was thinking, that “wardens of hell” can in fact be just mind-made aspect of hell that is a very bad kamma ripening. Depends on the interpretation, but it’s surely probable.
As for the concept of hell it makes sense - imagine a person who created a horrible suffering for thousands of thousands of people, like some dictators. It would take a very long time for such people to experience fruits of the suffering they inflicted upon so many people in human or animal realm. So hell realm is place where they experience fruits of this horrendous suffering they’ve inflicted. And once kamma has ripened, they’re out to some better realm again. Something like prison in real life and being released from it eventually.
I think it “makes sense”, even though it’s extremely cruel and I wish it did not exist, no matter how bad actions some beings have done. But sadly reality is not what we wish for.
This is my understanding… Lets say you burn down someone’s house. In your next life your house burns down. We wouldn’t think of the fire that burned down your house as a “being” but rather simply a result of your previous action. In hell, the results of your action do manifest in a way that looks like a “being”. Hell beings are simply a result of your previous actions.
Then a certain mendicant went up to Venerable Ānanda, and said to him, “Reverend Ānanda, when the Buddha declared that Devadatta was going to a place of loss, to hell, there to remain for an eon, irredeemable, did he do so after wholeheartedly deliberating, or was this just a way of speaking?”
“You’re right, reverend, that’s how the Buddha declared it.”
Then Venerable Ānanda went up to the Buddha, bowed, sat down to one side, and told him what had happened.
“Ānanda, that mendicant must be junior, recently gone forth, or else a foolish, incompetent senior mendicant. How on earth can he take something that I have declared categorically to be ambiguous? I do not see a single other individual about whom I have given such whole-hearted deliberation before making a declaration as I did in the case of Devadatta.
Here, Devadatta’s destination to hell must be understood in a categorical way.
The teachings about niraya are described by the Buddha as based on supernatural knowledge (abhiññā), a faculty present even among non-enlightened ascetics. Because of this, similar teachings are found in other religious traditions. However, non-enlightened ascetics reached certain conclusions about hell — such as that it is eternal or deliberately created by a supreme god — which the Buddha explicitly rejected. According to him, nirayas are natural phenomena, and rebirth in these place is result of the powerful unwholesome kamma of beings. They are not eternal, though their duration are extremely long.
The Buddha’s description of hells is, in fact, more hopeful than that of many other religions, for there remains the possibility of eventually attaining enlightenment after escaping from them.
Venerable Mahāmoggallāna himself is said to have been reborn in hell on at least two occasions: once for killing his parents in a previous life, and another time for persecuting the disciples of a past Buddha while he was Māra Dūsi.
It may be so, but in human realm my previous actions touch me also through independent beings totally responsible for their own actions.
I think the list is much longer … And it is the nature of modern world that victims of one psychopath can be counted in millions rather, than thousands.
Yep. Human world and hell are different in that way.
Could be. But there is the demon realm. I like to imagine that “hell warden” is the fate of those who excessively fault-find and criticize others, like those trolls on Twitter who enjoy tormenting people for any perceived fault, however slight. They think that they are “roasting” others, but they fail to see that they are also in hell.
Quite possibly your are right. No problem for me to suspend judgement for now. Point isn’t very important, but I like from time to time to discuss such topics to broaden my perspective. For example in this particular case, I assumed without questioning that hell guardians are independent beings, after all they talk and see, what requires consciousness.
Also the same problem appears on the level of Mara. He isn’t involved in such dirty and low job, but usually is involved with lot’s of akusala actions. So from one side Mara lives comfortably and we can classified such rebirth as a result of meritious actions. But it is difficult to imagine wholesome rebirth for Mara, if it would be based merely on his activity as Mara.
Very interesting take. My initial thoughts are that it would be probably too harsh treatment for such things, I don’t think that this trolling would be so bad kamma that would lead to hell, even as a “warden”.
But indeed this is very sad when people do these kind of things. I have some people like this in my life too, it’s very difficult sometimes to deal with that. Sometimes I wonder how much I should be compassionate to such people and try to help them despite their meanness, and when just to ignore them completely for the sake of my own sanity. But this is for another topic probably.
Ah, a common misunderstanding. Nobody said karma was proportionate! In fact, karma can be quite disproportionate! Give just a little rice to the right monk and you can go to heaven for a long time!
Nobody said karma was proportionate! In fact, karma can be quite disproportionate!
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Results of action aren’t disproportionate at all. Things are as they are, just it looks like God? Nature? Natural Law? isn’t at all democratic and highly valuates beings with knowledge about suffering and cessation of suffering.
On lower level it has predilection for these with high moral standards. So perhaps how unpleasant are negative consequences of trolling, depends on who is the victim of it. And we can be sure proportions will be well balanced .
“What do you think, Brahmin Dhammika? These six teachers were founders of spiritual sects, men without lust for sensual pleasures who had retinues of many hundreds of disciples. If, with a mind of hatred, one had insulted and reviled them and their communities of disciples, wouldn’t one have generated much demerit?”
“Yes, Bhante.”
“If, with a mind of hatred, one had insulted and reviled these six teachers together with their communities of disciples, one would have generated much demerit. But if, with a mind of hatred, one reviles and insults a single person accomplished in view, one generates even more demerit. For what reason? I say, Brahmin Dhammika, there is no injury against outsiders like that against [your] fellow monks. Therefore, Brahmin Dhammika, you should train yourself thus: ‘We will not let hatred arise in our minds toward our fellow monks.’ Thus, Brahmin Dhammika, should you train yourself.”
AN 6: 54
Psychopath ordering to kill people an masse is hated by many. It is not good to hate anyone, but in such casees dangers for the haters should not be as great.
Yes, Bhante. People often hold certain ideals of cosmic justice — such as proportionality, timely delivery of results, the possibility of negotiation, and a didactic dynamic of justice (“punishing” bad deeds and “rewarding” good deeds in ways that clearly promote virtue and discourage wrongdoing). But none of these apply to kamma. It is impersonal, relentless, non-negotiable, and sometimes seemingly paradoxical — yet never random, and never contrary to natural law. Nor is it ever omissive — all good and bad actions bear fruit in one way or another.
Heavens and hells, by the standards of unenlightened beings, may seem very disproportionate, depending on the case. Killing only one person lead to rebirth in hell if that person is one’s parent or an arahant. Yet killing 999 people wil not have the same result if one attains arahantship before death.
The exact workings of kamma are within the scope of Sammāsambuddhas alone. Still, out of compassion, the Buddha revealed those aspects that are understandable and relevant to practice.
Yes, this is clear in the case of Devadatta as per the sutta you quoted, but does that mean Niraya should be understood categorically?
Niraya in Digital Pali Dictionary
Hell. The Saṁyutta and Aṅguttara Nikāyas and the Sutta Nipāta contain a list of hells: Abbuda, Nirabbuda, Ababa, Aṭaṭa, Ahaha, Kumuda, Sogandhika, Uppala, Puṇḍarīka, Paduma. SN.i.149 AN.v.173 Snp.p.126
The Devadūta Sutta MN.iii.185 of the Majjhima Nikāya contains another list: Gūtha, Kukkuḷa, Simbalivana, Asipattavana and Khārodakanadī.
@Bundokji , the mentioned suttas have very cathegorical descriptions of Niraya, in particular, The Devadūta Sutta MN.iii.185
The sutta have depictions of Niraya, but that do not make necessarily make them categorical. The issue of what is categorical seem to be a recurring theme when it comes to Devadatta. For example, MN58 turned the issue of saying what is disagreeable as a non-categorical issue where Devadatta’s future destination was in question.
For example, SN22.79 says the following about rupa:
And why do you call it form?
Kiñca, bhikkhave, rūpaṁ vadetha?
It’s deformed; that’s why it’s called ‘form’.
Ruppatīti kho, bhikkhave, tasmā ‘rūpan’ti vuccati.
Deformed by what?
Kena ruppati?
Deformed by cold, heat, hunger, and thirst, and deformed by the touch of flies, mosquitoes, wind, sun, and reptiles.
Sītenapi ruppati, uṇhenapi ruppati, jighacchāyapi ruppati, pipāsāyapi ruppati, ḍaṁsamakasavātātapasarīsapasamphassenapi ruppati
The first four types of “deformation” seems to match the description of the internal fire element in MN140 whereas the last five have more to do with the external:
“What, bhikkhu, is the fire element? The fire element may be either internal or external. What is the internal fire element? Whatever internally, belonging to oneself, is fire, fiery, and clung-to, that is, that by which one is warmed, ages, and is consumed, and that by which what is eaten, drunk, consumed, and tasted gets completely digested, or whatever else internally, belonging to oneself, is fire, fiery, and clung-to: this is called the internal fire element. Now both the internal fire element and the external fire element are simply fire element. And that should be seen as it actually is with proper wisdom thus: ‘This is not mine, this I am not, this is not my self.’ When one sees it thus as it actually is with proper wisdom, one becomes disenchanted with the fire element and makes the mind dispassionate towards the fire element.
Externally, the fire element can be depicted as gory imagery of torture using fire, but does it make it categorical?
I could not find the list of hells (Abbuda, Nirabbuda, Ababa, Aṭaṭa, Ahaha, Kumuda, Sogandhika, Uppala, Puṇḍarīka, Paduma) in SN.i.149?
