No rebirth - what happens next?

The Watercooler
43

Yes, most of us are Buddhists here so we know the advantages of being content with what we have and a simple life.

Yes, while most people are not Buddhists, they don’t see the advantages of a simple life and being content with what they have, so they constantly pursue pleasures; unless one has some view of some type of afterlife, be it heaven, hell, purgatory, rebirth, etc.

I believe it was Bhante Gunaratana in one of his books, where he described it as a movie reel, where one tries to pursue one pleasure after another and then as the reel turns, giving the illusion of a continual happiness. But as we know, this is not how it ends up being a real happiness.

44

I think you mean by ‘physics’( and how many free variables are there in this fantastic theory that have to be set by experiment? It all seems a bit circular to me).

Basically what you seem to be saying is ‘physics’ is a science of reality. What I don’t get is how can a physicalist claim such a thing, when all these theories in physics are abstract mathematical structures. An idealist claiming this I can understand. For me it seems what a physicalist can claim at best is that ‘physics’ is a science of measurement. Also if am not mistaken as a layman, there are competing theories. Perhaps you can shed some light on this matter for me.

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45

Several prior posts speak about “reality.”

“Reality” is an abstract term with many different meanings in different contexts.
So it seems reasonable to specify as best we can what we mean when we use this word and what we’re trying to point to.

Often, “reality” is used to mean the physical domain in which everything occurs, such as the universe.

Yet measuring “reality”to 12 decimal points clearly indicates that there is a significant amount of “reality“ that is left unmeasured, untested, and unknown.
And perhaps even untestable.

Science is fundamentally about statistical inferences. There are no absolute “right“ measurements or answers, even when it comes to classical Newton mechanics.

And in quantum mechanics, measurement outcomes appear to be utterly random and inherently probably probabilistic. According to Neils Bohr and a many other quantum physicists, whatever “reality” is present prior to a measurement is fundamentally beyond apprehension, experimentation, or understanding.

So, again, “reality” is a fuzzy term and, as used with respect to the “universe” as used in the materiallist/scientific sense , is not particularly germane to practicing the Dhamma…

The Buddha’s description of the world and the All is: whatever can be experienced and known via and within the six sense fields. SN35.23.

He does not specifically deny an “outside reality“ but says that with respect to the purpose of the Dhamma— the cessation of all dukkha— that what can actually be experienced via the six senses is sufficient to this practice and purpose and is all that can be directly “known“ — in this context, this is the “reality” that we can know and work with.

When it’s internalized, Dhamma practice takes place in the world of our experiences through the six senses, other aspects of the Path such as kamma and rebirth become clearer.

47

I wonder if you find the same difficulty in explanation for continuation in this life in the absence of any persistent entities? That is, do you take the manifest experience of continuation in this life as ruling out the complete absence of any persistent entities? Another way of stating the question is do you regard the manifest experience of continuity in this life as sufficient evidence that persistent entities of some kind must exist? :pray:

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A post was merged into an existing topic: Evidence for Rebirth

50

I can’t discern much - if any - differences in actions (the five lay precepts) between those who profess beliefs in the after life, those who are agnostic, and those who deny such beliefs. It is not the point of the thread to suggest aspersions (hedonism) for those who do not so believe. Rather, it seems the point of the thread is inquiry into the beliefs of those who do not. :pray:

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51

I assume this is not directed toward me? I have not proselytized rebirth in this thread.

Yes, this is my interest in this thread too. I am okay and happy with Jayarava’s well-spoken response.

52

I admit that rebirth does not really play a big role in my life. I feel it is quit childish that the prospect of higher and lower rebirths must motivate people to do good. I immediately sense this has nothing to do with morals, with real ethics, with being a religious person. This is just business mentallity, impure, ego-centric. Call me naief, but i feel it is untrue to really expact that business is a noble Path.

I think buddhist doctrines like kamma and rebirth can, and probably do, lay an immense weight on the shouders of people.

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54

Sometimes we sleep on our left side; sometimes we sleep on our right side. Sometimes we sleep in the “corpse pose.” Although the Buddha slept in the “Lion’s Posture”, it is normal for most of us to toss and turn at night. Such is our kamma.

55

Sorry, I think it’s a pipe dream to imagine world peace via people attaining enlightenment one by one or in mass.

To attain to enlightenment, one has to have right view. See how many of the world would be willing to convert to Buddhism.

See now many here don’t adhere to the right view of rebirth. and how hard it is to convince people to believe. and how many practicing? and how many listening to senior forest monks who are the most likely to have some attainments?

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3 posts were split to a new topic: Secularism must lead to hedonism?

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What views? I am asking for the motivations of the secular buddhists. Jayavara gave a good response. And I am satisfied with his answer. I don’t know what else you are trying to read into it.

66

I already answered your questions. The motivations of secular Buddhists are the same motivations of Gotama, which are to end suffering & to not harm others.

I received a system message to stop replying to you here & send you a personal message. Good bye.

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Hi Alex. In my studies, I found there are higher teachings in Buddhism; that if the mind can be free from self-view, it will be free from the notion of ‘death’, which is called ‘The Deathless’. For the enlightened there is no death. Sounds strange but also amazing. :slightly_smiling_face:

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2 posts were merged into an existing topic: Evidence for Rebirth

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Hi @ Green, I can see where you are coming from.

I have to say that Khamma and Rebirth give me a great sence of relief.
I came from a Christian background when I went to India for the first time. I was blown away how they dealt with rich/poor/sick etc. They fed people but put ownership of their life and “destiny” back to the person. That was a revolutionary thought for me, never heard of before. No God, no praying, no deals (I do this and you give me that), no massive “threatening” church.

I began to “see” how things work and how it made sense to me. I could i.e much easier forgive, knowing that this person doesn’t even know what he/she is in for later on. This helped me especially in the years working in the Prison Service.

I don’t want to write too long. I’m just trying to say that this was never a motivation for me “to do good”. The precepts are my source of integrity.

I wish you a fruitful path, filled with happiness :slightly_smiling_face:

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Hi @ Jean, that’s really interesting! Thank you for sharing that.

It’s amazing how many different views come up here and I am glad I asked this question :smiley:

Happy and successful wandering on the path :bear:

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I used to find it difficult to believe rebirth. If one doesn’t believe in rebirth then one thinks that nothing happens after death and one shouldn’t ask if anything follows. If one asserted that something followed then it is as Puerh described

This shifts the burden of proof and he would not be fixated in thinking that there is nothing further to existence.

Whereas one who is fixated will not concede to there being anything describable after death.

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77

Hello , We are dying every moment and rebirth every moment. If we look now we are not the same as when we were born. It is changing all the time… i.e Anicca . The present life (body and mind ) is composed of five aggrgates . When the body cannot function at the end stage – we are changing to another new life starts with the new body with cell one from the very beginning and continue…continue never end - endless life cycles . It should be stopped and can be stopped by practicing - Vipassana. This phenomenon cannot be debating intellectually. It should be experienced by your own practice.

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I have been trying my best not to comment (or even read) this thread (not because I agree or disagree, that is my policy on most discussions in this forum), but I want to thank you for introducing this book. I am about halfway through, and it is an eye opener!

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