I can’t discern much - if any - differences in actions (the five lay precepts) between those who profess beliefs in the after life, those who are agnostic, and those who deny such beliefs. It is not the point of the thread to suggest aspersions (hedonism) for those who do not so believe. Rather, it seems the point of the thread is inquiry into the beliefs of those who do not. 
1 Like
I assume this is not directed toward me? I have not proselytized rebirth in this thread.
Yes, this is my interest in this thread too. I am okay and happy with Jayarava’s well-spoken response.
I admit that rebirth does not really play a big role in my life. I feel it is quit childish that the prospect of higher and lower rebirths must motivate people to do good. I immediately sense this has nothing to do with morals, with real ethics, with being a religious person. This is just business mentallity, impure, ego-centric. Call me naief, but i feel it is untrue to really expact that business is a noble Path.
I think buddhist doctrines like kamma and rebirth can, and probably do, lay an immense weight on the shouders of people.
2 Likes
Sometimes we sleep on our left side; sometimes we sleep on our right side. Sometimes we sleep in the “corpse pose.” Although the Buddha slept in the “Lion’s Posture”, it is normal for most of us to toss and turn at night. Such is our kamma.
Sorry, I think it’s a pipe dream to imagine world peace via people attaining enlightenment one by one or in mass.
To attain to enlightenment, one has to have right view. See how many of the world would be willing to convert to Buddhism.
See now many here don’t adhere to the right view of rebirth. and how hard it is to convince people to believe. and how many practicing? and how many listening to senior forest monks who are the most likely to have some attainments?
What views? I am asking for the motivations of the secular buddhists. Jayavara gave a good response. And I am satisfied with his answer. I don’t know what else you are trying to read into it.
I already answered your questions. The motivations of secular Buddhists are the same motivations of Gotama, which are to end suffering & to not harm others.
I received a system message to stop replying to you here & send you a personal message. Good bye.
Hi Alex. In my studies, I found there are higher teachings in Buddhism; that if the mind can be free from self-view, it will be free from the notion of ‘death’, which is called ‘The Deathless’. For the enlightened there is no death. Sounds strange but also amazing. 
1 Like
Hi @ Green, I can see where you are coming from.
I have to say that Khamma and Rebirth give me a great sence of relief.
I came from a Christian background when I went to India for the first time. I was blown away how they dealt with rich/poor/sick etc. They fed people but put ownership of their life and “destiny” back to the person. That was a revolutionary thought for me, never heard of before. No God, no praying, no deals (I do this and you give me that), no massive “threatening” church.
I began to “see” how things work and how it made sense to me. I could i.e much easier forgive, knowing that this person doesn’t even know what he/she is in for later on. This helped me especially in the years working in the Prison Service.
I don’t want to write too long. I’m just trying to say that this was never a motivation for me “to do good”. The precepts are my source of integrity.
I wish you a fruitful path, filled with happiness
1 Like
Hi @ Jean, that’s really interesting! Thank you for sharing that.
It’s amazing how many different views come up here and I am glad I asked this question 
Happy and successful wandering on the path 
I used to find it difficult to believe rebirth. If one doesn’t believe in rebirth then one thinks that nothing happens after death and one shouldn’t ask if anything follows. If one asserted that something followed then it is as Puerh described
This shifts the burden of proof and he would not be fixated in thinking that there is nothing further to existence.
Whereas one who is fixated will not concede to there being anything describable after death.
1 Like
Hello , We are dying every moment and rebirth every moment. If we look now we are not the same as when we were born. It is changing all the time… i.e Anicca . The present life (body and mind ) is composed of five aggrgates . When the body cannot function at the end stage – we are changing to another new life starts with the new body with cell one from the very beginning and continue…continue never end - endless life cycles . It should be stopped and can be stopped by practicing - Vipassana. This phenomenon cannot be debating intellectually. It should be experienced by your own practice.
I have been trying my best not to comment (or even read) this thread (not because I agree or disagree, that is my policy on most discussions in this forum), but I want to thank you for introducing this book. I am about halfway through, and it is an eye opener!
2 Likes
I can honestly say that that book changed my life. I used to correspond a bit with Metzinger. I posted a couple of essays on his work for my blog, he read them, and so we exchanged a few emails. As a result I had a chance to meet one to one with him a few years ago. Then right before we were due to meet, I became very ill and had to pull out. I was bitterly disappointed.
2 Likes
I finished reading The Ego Tunnel last night and have embarked on reading his latest book The Elephant and the Blind (2024).
The book is about describing the experiences of over 500 people in “minimal phenomenal experience” (MPE), also referred to as “pure awareness” or “pure consciousness.”
I was struck by how accurately or vividly these reports reflected my own experience. For the sake of harmony, I am not going to draw any parallels or direct links between MPE and Buddhist terminology/concepts, that is left as an “exercise for the reader.”
That way, I can avoid any accusations that I am claiming “attainments” (even though I disagree with the entire notion that the Buddha’s teachings can be realised through “attainments”, supernatural or mundane). To me, once one has directly experienced and can validate what the Buddha has taught, there can be no longer any confusion about what he taught, and in some cases what he didn’t. It’s not an “attainment” - simply a realisation and confirmation. And if one hasn’t directly experienced, well, it’s like a blind man explaining what an elephant is.
2 Likes
Thanks for drawing my attention to this book. I have been buried in other things for a while and hadn’t noticed it. Comparing notes about experience is how we gain useful knowledge about the world and ourselves. Knowledge-seeking is a collective human activity.
This is an exercise that I have already carried out and published. In my view, minimal phenomenal experience and śūnyatā are the same thing. Also known as “contentless awareness” etc. See for example:
Attwood, J. (2022) “The Cessation of Sensory Experience and Prajñāpāramitā Philosophy” IJBTC 32(1):111-148. International Journal of Buddhist Thought and Culture; also available on Academia.
In the Prajñāpāramitā literature, which is probably as old as the Pāli literature, śūnyatā means “absence” and refers to the absence of sensory experience following cessation. I strongly believe it is both anachronistic and incorrect to read these texts as manifestations of Madhyamaka metaphysics (as Conze and others have done). There’s no natural connection with Madhyamaka, which came significantly later. Mādhyamikas, tacitly, take the view that the absence of sensory experience is Ultimate Reality. Prajñāpāramitā never makes such category errors.
By framing Buddhism in epistemic terms, and by consciously backing away from metaphysics, I believe we arrive at a conception of Buddhism that make sense both in Buddhist terms and in Modernist terms. Your mileage may vary, but this is my personal starting point for thinking about Buddhism now.
As Sean Carroll once said on Twitter about the allegory of the blind men and the elephant: If the blind dudes just talked to each other, they would figure out it was an elephant before too long. That is to say, we are not trapped in a solipsistic nightmare because we can compare notes about experience with other sentient beings.
2 Likes
Also note that Metzinger’s book is open access. One can download the pdf for free from the publisher’s website.
3 Likes
Thanks, I agree.
What I liked about the new book is that it shows MPE is relatively achievable by “ordinary” people and doesn’t require omniscience, paranormal abilities, superhuman “attainments” etc.
1 Like