Recently while reading a text on the Teachings of Aryadeva (disciple of Nagarjuna), I bumped into this Eightfold path, a very old version I believe. It was thought provoking.
More I reflected on it, the more I was fascinated by some of the variants there, for instance how Correct Livelihood was presented, or Correct Action, or even Correct Speech.
I would love to discuss it, and hear how it blends with one’s own understanding and practice, of the path.
Buddhist texts present the path, as the Eightfold path, and sometimes as the Noble Eightfold path. Does the Noble Eightfold path mean the path that leads to Nobility once a person skillfully masters the features of the path, most critical being Samma Sati and Samma Samadhi that leads to the right view? in other words, the path of the Aspirant? According to the path featured below, Correct view is something that emerges due to practice of Samma sati and Samma Samadhi.
Correct View: understanding through investigation what was cognized during meditative equipoise.
Correct thought: Communicating what one has cognized to others, motivated by the wish to help them understand it.
Correct speech: Convincing others of the correct view and the fact that one holds it, by speaking to them appropriately.
Correct action: Convincing others of the purity of one’s ethical conduct by not performing improper actions.
Correct livelihood: Convincing others that one’s possessions are modest by using only the essential.
Correct effort: Energetically cultivating the paths which counteract disturbing attitudes and emotions to be abandoned by the path of meditation.
Correct mindfulness; Counteracting laxity and excitement by not forgetting the focal object of calm abiding.
Correct meditative stabilization, using superior knowledge to counteract discordant factors such as obstructions to absorption, through single pointedness.
end.
Correct Livelihood as indicated in the oldest Buddhism appears to be a minimalistic approach to life. ie intentionally living with only the essential- marked by clarity, and an intentionality. A Life with purpose.
Such a person stresses things that one most values, and does away with things that distract. It is built on a superior understanding of the Foundation of Buddha Dhamma, leads the introspective life.
The word meditative stabilization, of Samma Samadhi, I interpreted this as the stabilization reached, when one has learned, not to engage with forms that appear in the mind due to craving, as presented in the sutta on the Entanglement, ie not entangling with form by not identifying. with appearing form. In other words freedom from identification.
With Love
I have a question. I have some ideas about it, but I’d like to hear an answer because it’s important to me. According to the Suttas, was Siddhartha Gautama following the Noble Eightfold Path before His Supreme Awakening under the Bodhi tree? And to what extent? And to what extent not? To what degree were there traces of it in His life, and on average, how is this viewed among Buddhists who follow the EBTs? I imagine such information would be valuable to all Buddhists, in fact.
it doesn’t come in the usual four-fold manner (no lies, no divisive speech, no harsh spech, no idle chatter)? I’d be interested because I’m currently reading about Nagarjuna and sunyata as I was reading and participating in discussions where this is of importance. So is correct speech related to this?
The title Eightfold path, a very old version may be viewed as being misleading in this forum dedicated to early buddhist texts.
Aryadeva lived some 600 years after the Buddha. As a Mahayanist he cant be described as even being in one of the early schools. Would it be better to rename the title to a later or non-EBT version of the Eightfold Path?
According to the Suttas, was Siddhartha Gautama following the Noble Eightfold Path before His Supreme Awakening under the Bodhi tree?
Buddha realized how suffering originates (foundation of Paticca samuppada) and figured out how to end that self created suffering, on the night of his Awakening as reported. It is summarized in the 4 Noble Truths, which includes the
eightfold path that leads to end of suffering.
It is clearly reported in EBT that the Buddha gained this wisdom under the Bodhi tree, That is called his Awakening, or his enlightenment.
EBT reports that after his awakening, Buddha realized, how hard it would be, for a person to understand the profound Dhamma he realized, followed by Brahma’s invitation “There will be few without dust” For those he dedicated his life.
Your question “did he practice the eightfold path before his Awakening” and
questions such as
And to what extent? And to what extent not? To what degree were there traces of it in His life, and on average, how is this viewed among Buddhists who follow the EBTs?
To what degree were there traces of it in his life? That is a question that demands a great deal of research and time. So I will not tackle that.
As to your query did Siddhartha Gautama practice eightfold path before the Awakening? I would say in order to teach the eightfold path, Buddha had to experience it. Words can be tricky. It is reported that during the process of Awakening he realized the 4 Noble Truths, which includes the eightfold path.
Take it for what it is worth.
I am sure Siddharta reflected on these matters over days, and years, before becoming the Buddha and found the solution clearly and concisely on the night of Awakening, after which he was called the Buddha.
With Love .
Mahayanist claim that their school goes back to the Buddha just like Theravada and all extent schools of Buddhism. Are you here saying that Mahayanist claims are incorrect or that a Mahayanist saying they believe their school goes back to the Buddha is being misleading?
The people on this forum and those responsible for all the translations and other works we see here have lived some 2200 to 3000 years after the Buddha. Even those people first writing down the Pali canon and the Chinese Agamas - the EBTs - lived hundreds of years after the Buddha. And even that provenance is based on an oral story and tradition passed down.
Are the people on this forum also precluded from saying they follow the teachings of the Buddha or are followers of the early teachings?
The suttas contain numerous testaments of the Teacher describing his many lives as a Bodhisatta and following the dharma path taught to him by previous Buddhas. This I imagine would necessarily include the Eightfold path.
it doesn’t come in the usual four-fold manner (no lies, no divisive speech, no harsh spech, no idle chatter)? I’d be interested because I’m currently reading about Nagarjuna and sunyata as I was reading and participating in discussions where this is of importance. So is correct speech related to this?
This is the kind of query I look forward to. True, texts present correct speech in this four fold manner.
But notice how Arayadeva’s (or Nagarjuna’s I assume, since he was his teacher) definition of correct speech says
“by speaking to them appropriattely” what would be appropriate speech other than no lies, no divisive speech, no harsh speech, no idle chatter?
Thanks for helping me out to think more clearly, the idea behind “Discuss and Discover”
With Love
Dear yeshe.tenley: I appreciate your contributions, they are very helpful. As for your comment
The suttas contain numerous testaments of the Teacher describing his many lives as a Bodhisatta and following the dharma path taught to him by previous Buddhas. This I imagine would necessarily include the Eightfold path.
True suttas refer to an Aspiration over lifetimes. It is reported that the current Buddha had encounters with other Buddhas, Kassapa being the last. Hearing of the eightfold path, and realization of the Path, are these not different?
We read frequently of the 4 Noble Truths, but the struggle that involves in the cessation of suffering? and that marvelous ability to communicate the realized truth?
I think this is what Buddha accomplished on the night of the Awakening.
Apparently there are latent Buddhas that realize but are unable to teach.
With Love
This clearly isn’t the eightfold path which the Buddha taught.
I mean, sure, the titles of the path factors look the same, but the Buddha did explain the path factors in a very unambiguous way – many, many times. Such as in the Mahāsatipaṭṭhāna Sutta
The path which you outline here starts with wrong view and progresses accordingly. It is not the path to nibbāna.
I have a theory that the Noble Eightfold Path can come naturally. For example, if one hangs around Buddhists long enough who practice it, the newcomer can also pick up all of its traits. After all, how many of us actually follow it mechanically, and how many through inspiration? It’s actually a complex question.
The noble 8 fold path is the path to enlightenment. You can’t just pick it up from hanging around, or we would have a whole lot of arahants. The Buddha said it is to be developed. To develop something you have to have a clear apprehension of it- stream entry. The cause for stream entry is not just hanging around with others, it is also yoniso manasikara
'Monks, in whatever former life, former existence or dwelling-place the Tathagata, being born a human being, undertook mighty deeds to good purpose, unwavering in good conduct of body, speech and thought, in generosity, self-discipline, observance of the fast-day, in honouring parents, ascetics and Brahmins and the head of the clan, and in other highly meritorious acts; by performing that kamma, heaping it up, lavishly and abundantly, at the breaking-up of the body after death he was reborn in a happy state, in a heavenly world, where he was endowed beyond other devas in ten respects: in length of heavenly life, beauty, happiness, splendour, influence, and in heavenly sights, sounds, smells, tastes and contacts…
"Monks, in whatever former life. . .the Tathagata, being born a human being, lived for the happiness of the many, as a dispeller of fright and terror, provider of lawful protection and shelter, and supplying all necessities…
"Monks, in whatever former life. . . the Tathagata, being born a human being, rejecting the taking of life and abstaining from it, and laying aside stick and sword, dwelt, kind and I compassionate, having friendship and sympathy for all living beings…
"Monks, in whatever former life. . .the Tathagata became a giver of fine food, delicious and tasty, hard and soft, and of drinks…,
"Monks, in whatever former life. . .the Tathagata made himself beloved through the four bases of sympathy: generosity, pleasing speech, beneficial conduct and impartiality…
"Monks, in whatever former life. . .the Tathagata became a speaker to the people about their welfare, about Dhamma,explaining this to people and being a bearer of welfare and happiness to beings, a dispenser of Dhamma…
“Monks, in whatever former life. . .the Tathagata approached an ascetic or Brahmin and asked: "Sir, what is the good, what is the bad? What is blameworthy, what is not? What course is to be followed, what is not? What, if I do it, will be to my lasting sorrow and harm, what to my lasting happiness…?”
"Monks, in whatever former life. . .the Tathagata lived without anger, perfectly unruffled, and even after many words had been uttered was not abusive, or agitated, or wrathful, or aggressive, displaying neither anger nor hatred nor resentment, but was in the habit of giving away fine, soft rugs, cloaks, fine linen, cotton, silk and woollen stuffs…
"Monks, in whatever former life the Tathagata . . . desired the welfare of the many, their advantage, comfort, freedom from bondage, thinking how they might increase in faith, morality, learning, renunciation, in Dhamma, in wisdom, in wealth and possessions, in bipeds and quadrupeds, in wives and children, in servants, workers and helpers, in relatives, friends and acquaintance…
See, DN30 for more info.
In Sanghas worldwide this is refered to as his carreer as Bodhisattva. There are also other Canonical books which describe this past lifes and deeds in more detail.
My heart and mind sees this as Buddhas boundless goodness, his heartfelt committment to the welfare of other beings, always wanting to help others in a worldy and spiritual manner (but surely also in a worldly manner!), always willing to learn, to do good, to develop skills to help others. Some tradition refer to this heartfelt goodness as bodhicitta. I believe it makes a Buddha a very special being. That is also the moral of DN30.
In endless lifes the Bodhisattva was devoted to goodness, purity, the truth. The heart is devoted to this.
But clearly he walked the Path, right?, and not only that, he also taught the Dhamma too in former lifes according this sutta.
Yes, that is the structure of the suttas (MN117, for example).
The Buddha taught the Path of gradual change, the Path of conditioning, of making good habits or inclinations in us strong, abandoning unwholesome ones. Not feeding the unwholesome anymore. Do all we can that contributes to our own and the welfare of others. This is the Path of bright kamma with bright results.
Ofcourse conditionings are always connected to an element of passion. So this does not represent purity, but merit. You can read this in MN117 but also common sense makes this clear.
Ofcourse nobility is not like having only good conditionings/habits/inclinations, and thinking, speeking, acting only from those good conditionings. The suttas are very clear about this. This is the bond of merit. And also this bond must be cut, or one must go beyond it.
Conditioning is, ofcourse, never about freedom, never about Nibbana.
But it paves the Path to Nibbana.
Purity, dispassion, is beyond good and bad conditionings. It is not karmically active. All that arises from conditioning is still karmically active but all that arises from purity is not. MN117.
Any thought, view, intention, speech, action that arises in a habitual manner is conditioned of nature and is not pure. Conditionings represent the passionate. There is always a certain forcefulness in conditionings. You can also feel this, right?
The mundane noble path is about conditioning. The supra mundane path is the path connected to purity, to dispassion. If an action is based upon dispassion (and all powers, enlightmentfactors are), and is pure, it is not a conditioning, not a machine-like habitual act.
So the unconditioned refers to that dimension in our life that is itself free from conditionings. We all have this. If Nibbana dhatu were not there we would not be able to arrive there.
A deed that is based upon dispassion is never compulsive of nature, it has no element of obsession or passion in it, it is never a conditioning.
It does not mean that we act in some magical causeless way, but these actions are not habitual of nature and therefor not karmically loaded. One can also say, these actions are not based upon what has become our bagage.
The suttas do not refer to this level of habits, conditionings, instincts, drift, automatic actions as noble, also not when they are bright and meritorious.
Noble deeds are never conditionings. This also means, one will not become a noble by merely imitating the life of noble. By merely conditioning. Never, ever.
The Path to Nobility is not like ‘fake it till you make it’. The noble path starts with seeing this dimension in our lifes that is pure, not a conditioning. A total openess, a non-reactive nature, dispassionate.
Most beings are really blind for this dimension. They only have eye for the passionate. And having only eye for passionate is like being blinded and not seeing the escape and the Noble Path. That is what the Buddha teaches i believe. The Buddha teaches the Path to the unconditioned, to purity, to the amazing, to the not desintegrating etc (SN43)
This path differs in description from the one found in the so-called EBTs I’ll give you that. That does not mean it wasn’t taught by the Buddha as an alternative description.
That you know the Teacher did not describe the eightfold path in this way or that it is “late” is a conceit.
Thank you for your clarification. I think what I was trying to say that both it’s development, attention, and apprehension of it can be accessed through association with those who practice it. How this works is that it is evident in their word, thought, and deed, and so it reflects on everyone around them. This is why I believe being a Buddhist is important: even if one doesn’t talk about Buddhism with a friend, they will still take from your example. Namaste.
I’ll do that. (anyone with an algorythmically determined trust level can do that, btw, not just moderators.)
regarding the word “Old” used to describe Aryadeva’s version of eightfold path.
Dear Snowbird: I searched for how Buddhists presented the 8-fold path before sectarianism began.
I could not find a version attributed to Nagarjuna, other than in a text attributed to a commentary by Aryadeva, his student. It can be found on AMZN.
The text is titled Aryadeva’s 400 stanzas on the middle way. Eightfold Path was presented in that text as I copied it, mostly identical.
My goal was to look for a version of Eightfold Path that was not influenced by Abhidhamma.
Since this version existed before Abhidhamma gained a strong influence in later schools, I called it “Old” . I wanted to emphasize the fact that it was not influenced by later emergent Abhidhamma.
Pali canon was written in Anuradhapura around the 5th century by Buddhaghosa, and he was influenced by Vibajjavadin (Theravada) Abhidhamma.
Nagarjuna relied on the Suttas written by Mulasarvastivadins, which most agree are older than the suttas written by Theravadins.
I don’t mean to deviate from the topic. But unlike what some believe, like David Kalupahana and A.K. Warder, I clearly understand that Nagarjuna never deviated from the original teachings of the Buddha. Only difference from Theravada would be that Nagarjuna stayed away from Abhidhamma.
I can bring a couple of examples from the Pali canon uninfluenced by Abhidahamma, to show how Nagarjuna based his teachings on Buddha’s original teachings, Sunyata and Middle way for example.
Hopefully I have made it clear, why I used the word old in my title,
Yes I too was impressed by the fact the path presented emphasized the critical importance of Samma Sati and Samma Samadhi to arrive at Right view.
Titles of the individual 8 steps are the same as in the Pali version. It made more sense to me the descriptions of Correct Speech and Correct Livelihood in Aryadevas’s version. Sounded closer to practice of livelihood and speech of a person contemplating renunciation.
Peace!
