Non-evil platforms for Buddhist monks/nuns to post on, escaping GAFAM/FAANG/whatever

The Watercooler
41

I definitely understand your position on “likes” and they’re something I feel a bit uneasy with myself. I don’t use social media anymore (outside of this forum), but when I started using this forum I tried to approach it with some mindfulness about the problems that likes had caused for me in the past.

One practical thing I did that was extremely helpful was to turn off notifications for people liking my posts. I will still check from time to time to see if a post has gotten likes, and I see that mostly as a way to read the room… since I’m relatively new here, it’s useful to have some feedback about if my participation is contributing positively to the forum.

Giving likes is ambiguous, as you point out, but I’m not sure that’s a big problem for me. I use a like online exactly as I’d use a smile IRL, I’m just trying to communicate general positivity and good will. If I want to be more specific, I’ll write something more specific.

But the inherent uneasiness in giving and receiving likes is something that can really strengthen practice, if approached in the right way. If something I write doesn’t get any likes and I notice feeling disappointed, there’s a lot to be learned by examining why that feeling arose. Or if something I wrote gets a lot of likes and I notice feeling a lot of pleasure from that, there’s so much to learn about ego in that moment. Examining the decision to like or not like something someone else wrote yields rather a lot of information as well, about how skillfully I’m relating to other people and how external stimulus can lead to internal cravings and aversion.

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42

Yes. I only found that functionality recently, and very good it is too. For those who don’t know it’s:

  • Click on your avatar
  • Click on the little person icon on the right hand side
  • Click on ‘Preferences’
  • On the left hand side click on ‘Notifications’
  • About half way down there is a setting ‘Notify when liked’

Point taken, but not everyone uses the :heart: in that way, so as a communication tool I think that these single click reactions are still problematic. Even a selection of emoticons would mean so much more. :woman_shrugging: :wink:

That’s certainly very true and very valid. But in those times when it is not approached in the right way (those days where our mindfulness is a bit below par), do these :heart: 's lead to more strife in the community and more work for the moderators? Is it worth encouraging unwholesome behaviours in those of us who are not so mature in the path with an ambiguous messaging system? I don’t know the answers, I’m just asking questions at this point. What I do know is that there have been some excellent contributors who have left the forum over the years due to argy-bargy, so it is entirely possible that we can do better by using communication tools that don’t drive (those of) us (who don’t know our minds so well) into unwholesome directions?

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43

I actually really like Discourse the way it is (it was a great choice), and my only slight gripe with it, is that I wish they improved the mobile experience. (Like maybe a dedicated mobile app, which can handle switching between accounts at several different discourse sites)?

I use a laptop as my “daily driver” BTW, not a phone. I only advocate a mobile perspective, because many Buddhists I know, especially the younger generations, have a mobile-first philosophy, and generally don’t seem to care about privacy. Actually, it’s probably better described as a “sour-grapes” situation: since they can’t have privacy (to go along with all the access and convenience they feel a sense of entitlement towards, including the benefits of Network Effects, as @Khemarato.bhikkhu mentioned), they decidedly don’t want privacy. You know, the old “I’ve got nothing to hide” line. That’s sour grapes.

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I appreciate more traditional Content Management Systems like Wordpress (much more heavyweight, and have a backend database), but there had better be someone who is on-call to apply Security Updates! (Or automate such updates, then check on them).

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45

Bhante, what kind of mobile device are you using (I figure it must be Android, but is it on the smaller or larger side regarding screen size)? There can be an issue with the keyboard taking a large piece of screen on smaller devices, but there are compact keyboards that help with that.

On a bigger screen I have at least top 50% of the screen available for the composer and can see roughly 12 lines of text while typing.

On Android the keyboard also hides automatically by pressing the Android back button, which enables me to navigate to other posts in or outside the topic and select and quote text as needed.

Actually, one of the things that impressed me the most was that Discourse came equipped by a usable mobile experience from the very start, unlike some more popular forum software, which is absolutely horrid on mobile (flat infinite scroll beats paginated nested replies any day).

I also use mobile devices exclusively (5.7" Android and 10" tablet) for both content creation and administration, with 90% of the time using a mobile phone (I can even do SSH to the server from Android if needed, but I do use a tablet for most of the back end administrative tasks and for some of the more complex posts).

Although this is not a native app which would enable viewing content on each Discourse forum (it can, but it uses Chrome tabs, so it is basically still Web client), it is primarily a hub which enables one to add multiple forums to the same interface (using separate credentials for each forum), with a general overview of new and unread posts for each forum

as well as a cumulative notifications view over all connected forums

I usually set each Discourse forum as a PWA (PWAs created from Chrome are available as ‘native’ apps on Android) and set URLs for each forum to open in its corresponding PWA (works on Android, not sure about iOS), and then I can access the content for each forum directly from the hub (each forum opens in its own PWA ‘native’ app).

A native (mobile OS or Desktop specific) app was requested (and even developed) by some users in the past, but it is very unlikely that the Discourse team would develop official one, though. There are good reasons for it: different forums can be extended by numerous plugins and themes, which couldn’t be rendered by a generic app, because these are server and client dependent (each forum would have to produce its own native app for something like this to work).

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46

I have an Android 11 phone with a 6" screen. No tablet.

I’m trying your suggestions: Chrome (not my fav, but OK), save PWA to home screen, plus I’m using a Bluetooth keyboard. It’s a passable experience, yes. Thanks.

There are some decent keyboard shortcuts that work this way too, like selecting text while holding shift, Ctrl + B to bold, etc. This overcomes tiny things to tap on.

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47

Agreed, Github is super generous to allow Jekyll hosting, even with custom domain names. Thanks Microsoft! I’ll give Microsoft credit where it’s due there.

Non-geeks should ignore the next paragraph:
I went with my own paid-for VPS, where I run Debian as the OS, and nginx as the web server. I had to use some sophisticated nginx configuration, because I use the “clappr” web-page embedded video player a lot on my site, and it developed a tough-to-accommodate fussiness: clappr doesn’t like it when you embed videos which are not located within your own domain, or sub-domain! I had to very carefully think through the DNS record setup, and nginx configs, to make clappr happy, and simultaneously avoid storing large binary blobs, namely .mp4 Dhamma talk videos, within git.

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48

One thing we haven’t discussed yet: what about a non-evil payments system?

PayPal is one of the uber-evil companies, being founded by the Facebook board member Peter “freedom and democracy are incompatible” Thiel, who is quite possibly the most dangerous man alive. The founders of PayPal went on to create, among other things, Palantir (aka the seeing stone; see also “Valar Ventures” and “Mithril Capital”) which runs data analytics for spy agencies and the military, and Glow, a “fertility app”. Totally not creepy!

SuttaCentral uses Stripe, which when we started was a pretty clean startup. It’s grown a lot since then, though. Recently they announced they were looking at launching their own crypto, so I am looking for other options. I don’t want SC’s finances to be handled by a company that believes in fairy dust and wishes.

But that’s the problem, isn’t it? Actually all these companies do plenty of good things. Well most of them! We can point to individual problems and behaviors, but at the end of the day, the underlying issue is not the specifics, but the very idea of companies that large and with their fingers in so many pies. No private organization, especially not ones operating with so little oversight, should have that much money and power.

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49

Indeed, there are so many fingers in so many pies, it’s pretty much impossible to keep track of which fingers are in what pies of varying degrees of good or evil.

That’s another reason why I like using my own little Frankenstein-esque Open Source-based website: yes, it took longer to understand and set up, but then it pays off in the longer term, because I know each piece of the puzzle well, and these pieces change very little over time. There aren’t these fluctuating corporate reputations and gradually darkening shades of morality underlying everything, much more subject to the turbulent changes in market conditions, marching to a ruthless drumbeat toward the endless need to keep growing and performing economically.

Open Source lets you step outside those uncontrollable market forces to a large extent. Having said this, you do step inside a wild-west of choosing from many competing open source projects, so it’s a little like robbing Peter to pay Paul. It’s still worth it, because the overall morality underlying the Open Source world is much cleaner, by and large (albeit, not perfect).

PS: here in Canada we have a good online payment system called “Interac eTransfer”, which is just sort of like conventional banks allowing payment from one Canadian bank account to another, based on the recipient’s email address. Only works within Canada, unfortunately. Maybe Australia has something like that? It’s too bad it isn’t a global system.

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50

I do much of the technical bits for the Wisdom and Wonders project - wiswo.org which is mainly a WordPress site, although the MettaShelf book web app MettāShelf Library is an attempt at me learning a bit of vanilla JavaScript. The code is a mess, but I’ll get it together by the time it reaches v1 I promise. :expressionless:

We don’t really produce any video at the moment, but I think that will change over the coming years and I’m looking at a plan about how/where to host these.

Thanks @musiko for the LBRY recommendation, I’ve put that on my research list.

Are there others that I should put on the list?

Does anyone have any comments to make about joinpeertube.org ?

For background, so you know where to pitch any answers ...

I have also acquired a computer science degree in my travels through life (a long time ago in the pre Linux/WWW era). My experience is architecting the non functional requirements (TA) for mission/life critical systems, but for the nitty gritty I relied on the skills of network, sys and db magicians… I mean ‘admins’. So, very far away from the weird and wacky world of WWW development. A whiteboard and marker pen are my main design tools.

I do have a raspberry pi (SBC) hanging off my home router on which I’ve installed a LEMP stack, some letsencrpt SSL certs and a couple of public facing WordPress sites so I can share development and testing with the other wiswo project members. So I can do that sort of thing.

I don’t use GitHub, but it’s on the (ever growing) list. Maybe it shouldn’t be?

As far as using, working for, encouraging, and investing in GAFAM, let’s just say I’m probably going to hell. But that’s nothing compared to the damage that I’ve caused to people and nature by enabling GAFAM clients with the systems I’ve helped them to build. But at least I’m done with all that now. It’s safe to say that I’m not mendicant material. :rofl:

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51

Thank you venerable for the link to the video about Facebook - it is quite shocking.

However, ethical choice about Facebook use depends on a situation. There are other reasons than being misinformed about Facebook or not knowing of alternatives, why at least some people, stay with Facebook – it is due to a group effect or a kind of network effect. This may apply to some monks and nuns, not just lay people like me.

For many older people to give up Facebook would mean giving up membership in all Facebook private groups they joined. Effectively it would also mean cutting off information on group real life meetings, outings and opportunities to continue cultivating such friendships, and give others support in good social projects, and feel supported too.

Would cancelling Facebook membership benefit them or other people in their groups? I don’t know. But personally, at present, as far as I see it would neither benefit me or benefit others in the 2 groups I am in if I got out, but in the future maybe.

Similarly, for some parents and grandparents, to leave a Facebook private family group – would mean to reduce connection with the loved ones and opportunity to learn about their activities at least to some extent, when not able to see them directly. In the past, most grandparents lived with their families, and children were protected and guided through their help in various ways. Now many family members are far apart, and children listen less to parents, let alone grandparents after they reached teenage years. They chose the social media their friends use, not what their parents or grandparents would like them to watch or read.

Would that really help my family if I cancelled my Facebook account? At present no, and the future depends on them too.

I have been using computers all my adult life, and it has been a gradual process, from learning about computers and binary system and simple programming at school in late 1960s, to later using them at university study, work and at home for many years – from math workstations and the DOS, to first versions of Windows and Office, early computer languages and Intranet to finally Internet with its innovations. So, I have been aware of the gradual changes and impacts of computers on my mind and on others I know personally for more than 50 years. I was never really interested in using computers for entertainment, but as a marvellous tool and library. So I feel saddened to read and hear stories of misuse of those great inventions – misuse by chains and networks of software developers, business wholesale and retail and broad range of users.

I think Facebook organisation is like other big multinational business for profit that is just supplying demand of consumers, following the same old business model as many governments who aim for ongoing economic growth and measure progress using money.

If all science and IT graduates had to pass a subject on ecology and global ethics and then also sign an oath of ethical conduct, before they received their degrees, then I think social media and both global physical and social (mental) climate would change to the better more rapidly .
:pray:

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52

That’s possible. But for IT, I’m not sure how much it would help. Because of the ever-increasing redundancy of computer science degrees. You can’t be a doctor without a degree, so the oath holds weight. But becoming a self-made programmer isn’t much harder than getting a comp sci degree.

If you can demonstrate that you know your stuff, you may actually get ahead of people with degrees. I have a comp sci degree, and I’d say 90% of my fellow students never learned how to code. It’s one thing to get good grades and write code that simply does things. It’s a completely different thing to really understand how to write good code. You can’t learn that from most universities.

Public interest and education would go a long way. So many people simply don’t understand the importance of protecting their data, nevermind how to do it. Which probably can’t be changed quickly. But mandatory classes on Internet & privacy in high schools would be a good start.

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53

That’s a commendable idea. Here’s one thing I can share when it comes to better ethics: back when I was in Uni, learning Linux was optional (and I did so). Today, at the same university, same program, learning Linux is mandatory. You can’t even get into your first Comp. Sci. class until you’ve gone through “Linux Boot camp.” So the better ethics that come along with Linux effectively gets enforced today (at least, at the Uni where I went), as a required part of the curriculum to be learned.

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54

That connected goodness isn’t inherent to Facebook, it’s inherent to wherever the network effects happen to accrue. In the medium term, the Network Effects could similarly accrue someplace else, someplace with better ethics, then you and your family could get the same connected goodness there. Facebook doesn’t own the patent on “friendships”, nor “family togetherness.” They’ve just managed to garner, by hook or by crook, the Network Effects at this time in history.

55

Yes, but that is not an issue for me and probably is not for many other people. The Facebook private groups I joined (with some hesitation) on invitation by group members, by real friends whom I trust. I am not in a position to change those real groups to different social media platforms.

Here I share one as an example - Nan Tien Campaign 2030 - Spiritual Environmental Community of Practice. One founder of the campaign is a lay Buddhist and another is monastic. And they advertise the group monthly Zoom events via Facebook and share good information to support the group members and inspire others. I am not in the position to influence the choice of their social media platforms and I don’t want to upset anyone.

Earlier this month Bhante Sujato joined a panel discussion at our monthly Zoom event, on a topic ‘How do you know things’. It was advertised both on the Lokanta Vihara website and on Facebook NT Campaign 2030. He is much more informed about social media platforms than I and in much better position to influence Buddhist group decision makers.

So please share here a link to a viable alternative to Facebook that Bhante Sujato would recommend as well, so I can then share it with the Nan Tien group at our next meeting along with the link to video about Facebook corruption scandals. Thanks.

56

If I were starting today, I’d use Gitlab. Having said which, there’s no denying, Github is an amazing developer’s tool.

Give it up, or otherwise minimize usage. For you, Dana, it’s not really going to be a problem: you have wisdom and non-attachment.

But whenever we normalize FB, by contributing content to it (i.e. making posts, replying, linking, and so on) we are encouraging others to be a part of it. And inevitably, regardless of what you see or what your experience is, they will be exposed and influenced by radical, extremist, and hateful content. FB is exceptional in this regard, because the owners of it actively believe in this stuff and try to promote it. Almost all of the best-performing posts are extreme rightwing content.

Grandparents are not just on FB innocently connecting with their kids. They are avid consumers and promoters of extremist content. They are fed a diet of Ben Sappiro, of Fox News, of hate and xenophobia, paranoia, resentment, and lies, and they actively contribute the spreading this on FB. Getting elders off FB is not just just a gesture of ethical purity, it saves their souls.

Use it as little as possible, look for alternatives, and discourage others from using it. If you think that “there is no alternative”, FB has done its job. That’s what they want you to think.

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I advocate Mattermost Team server (an Open Source clone of Slack), as a very decent team collaboration tool. Will it ever be as whizz-bang as Facebook? Alas, no. But it does what I need it to do. I’ve been using it reliably for a year and half now, seen here, and an invite is needed to join (PM me if you want one). It’s latest 6.0 release has some sophisticated new features, and the so-called “Boards” feature is one I’ll be testing out myself fairly soon (which seeks to be a clone of Trello).

If someone at the Nan Tien Campaign (who knows some Linux) wants to test out Mattermost on a Raspberry Pi 4 (before deploying it in the cloud somewhere), I wrote an unofficial guide on how to do that here. That’s my link, @Dana .

I think Ajahn Sujato would likely advocate Discourse (as in, the Nan Tien organization could install it on a server of their own choosing), which this very forum is using.

I think both Mattermost and Discourse are solid choices. You can paste links to your Zoom meetings in either of these team/forum tools. I can’t expect @sujato to advocate Mattermost, if he’s unfamiliar with it. Mattermost and Discourse are going to have somewhat different “personalities”. If your people already know Slack and/or Trello, then you’ll likely want to pick Mattermost. Mattermost is also more lightweight than Discourse, which is a big reason why I chose it over Discourse. Mattermost is actually performant on a Raspberry Pi 4 (hint: use an M.2 drive case), owing to it being written in Golang. That mattered to me, as I wanted to run Mattermost on a cheap $5 US/month server (and I now do that).

Will I install (or, more importantly, maintain) anything for your organization? Sorry, but, I have a community of Buddhists here in Calgary whom I need to focus on serving primarily.

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Thank you Bhante, minimizing usage is the way I am taking, and see what to do next.

I am going to send a link to this thread to the NT Campaign leaders with my concerns about Facebook for their noble ideal and campaign, because in this case the choice of ethical social media platform is very important and so they may consider changing from Facebook to a better option. But local birdwatchers group I go out with to do surveys would think I am an extremist, I would feel excluded. But they are good people to learn from and be with for birding surveys and field outings.

Thank you Bhante Subharo also.

Finally, I have a question regarding the anti Covid vaccine conspiracy theories spread :
A person whom I know refuses to get vaccinated against Covid and also has some other not-violent but wild ideas, and he follows overseas news from America. Yet he is not on Facebook and criticises it also. I never asked him what channels or social media he watches, because I don’t have the interest or time for it. But after learning more about Facebook here, can you please list the main social media and news organisations in US that believe in and actively encourage anti vaccine conspiracies?

That would be helpful to me and possibly others reading this topic . :pray:

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59

Err… basically I don’t. The pandemic happened just as we started building at Kusala and I never got on Zoom or anything like that. We’ve got a regular meditation group in Roleystone now, but it isn’t recorded.

For a while I used Quora. There was some great content on there but the whole endless feed thing really isn’t great. These days it’s a bit all over the place and a bit of a waste of time.

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I’m one of the few people who still use Firefox. I can see gradually that things just stop working if you’re not on a Chrome-like browser. Mozilla had put a lot of work into a brand new browser engine called Servo, written in Rust. That they basically dropped the project due to financial problems is a bit sad.

One thing I have been enjoying of late is R. This is commonly used as a data science tool, especially combined with the tidyverse packages developed by Hadley Wickham. There’s a lot of open content out there such as R for Data Science and Statistical Modeling. I worked through the former and recommend giving yourself at least a year to get through all the content. Combine this with open data and many fascinating projects may follow. Think natural and social sciences, law, finance and yes, making evil search engines. There’s a huge supportive community including an R for Data Science slack group and #TidyTuesday which releases a new data set each week to play with and post visualizations.

I got into this mainly because I got bored of web applications. It’s not of any particular use, though my sister will start a masters psychology degree soon and I might be able to help. It’s just for fun.

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