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Notes on the segmentation of Pali Vinaya with Brahmali's translation


#142

Please don’t get them started yet, we need to review the segmentation and the markup first. Best wait until it’s all in order, else it multiplies the complexity.


#143

Thanks @sabbamitta. I’ve had a look at it and there is a fault in the Pali. It should only occur once.


#144

Bi Ss 10

There is a similar instance to the one I found in some places in the Bhikkhu Vibhanga, in the non-offense clauses: Sometimes the Pali has the whole list abbreviated, and then the last item comes in a separate segment. Ajahn @brahmali’s comment was this shouldn’t be in a separate segment, and I clicked the “needs work” button.

Now in this rule this might be similar:
“buddhaṃ paccācikkhāmi, dhammaṃ paccācikkhāmi, saṃghaṃ paccācikkhāmi, sikkhaṃ paccācikkhāmi.” occurs a few time throughout the rule, and sometimes it is abbreviated:
“buddhaṃ paccācikkhāmi … pe …
sikkhaṃ paccācikkhāmi.”

Again, the last item comes in a separate segment.

The English, as in the non-offence clauses, isn’t abbreviated in the same way but has the full list.

Probably I should make it “needs work” here too?


#145

Yes, these should be part of the same segment. Please mark “needs work”.


#146

The same again in the next rule with:

“chandagāminiyo ca bhikkhuniyo, dosagāminiyo ca bhikkhuniyo, mohagāminiyo ca bhikkhuniyo, bhayagāminiyo ca bhikkhuniyo”

respectively

“chandagāminiyo ca bhikkhuniyo … pe …
bhayagāminiyo ca bhikkhuniyo”


#147

Another inconsistency in Bi Ss 11:

There seems to be a section in the Pali with no corresponding English translation (segments 74-79):

““chandagāminiyo ca bhikkhuniyo…
pe…
bhayagāminiyo ca bhikkhuniyo”ti.
Sā taṃ vatthuṃ na paṭinissajjati.
Yadi saṃghassa pattakallaṃ, saṃgho itthannāmaṃ bhikkhuniṃ samanubhāseyya tassa vatthussa paṭinissaggāya.
Esā ñatti.”

Added: This is just very confusing. There are a few very similar passages following each other from segment 74 onward, with slight differences, and there seem to be some inconsistencies between the Pali and the English. I’m having trouble distinguishing them. Will look closer into it next week (my Vinaya time for today has run out, and tomorrow is a Vinaya-free day… :wink:).


#148

Quite a bit of the Pali is missing. Segments 74 to 79 should include the following Pali text:

Suṇātu me, ayye, saṃgho. Ayaṃ itthannāmā bhikkhunī kismiñcideva adhikaraṇe paccākatā kupitā anattamanā evaṃ vadeti— “chandagāminiyo ca bhikkhuniyo…pe… bhayagāminiyo ca bhikkhuniyo”ti. Sā taṃ vatthuṃ na paṭinissajjati. Yadi saṃghassa pattakallaṃ, saṃgho itthannāmaṃ bhikkhuniṃ samanubhāseyya tassa vatthussa paṭinissaggāya. Esā ñatti.

The beginning, from suṇātu to vadeti, is missing on Pootle.


#149

@brahmali:

The inconsistencies continue in segments 85–102.

Pali:
Yadi saṃghassa pattakallaṃ, saṃgho itthannāmaṃ bhikkhuniṃ samanubhāseyya tassa vatthussa paṭinissaggāya.
Esā ñatti.
“chandagāminiyo ca bhikkhuniyo…
pe…
bhayagāminiyo ca bhikkhuniyo”ti.
Sā taṃ vatthuṃ na paṭinissajjati.
Saṃgho itthannāmaṃ bhikkhuniṃ samanubhāsati tassa vatthussa paṭinissaggāya.
Yassā ayyāya khamati itthannāmāya bhikkhuniyā samanubhāsanā tassa vatthussa paṭinissaggāya, sā tuṇhassa;
yassā nakkhamati, sā bhāseyya.
Suṇātu me, ayye, saṃgho.
Ayaṃ itthannāmā bhikkhunī kismiñcideva adhikaraṇe paccākatā kupitā anattamanā evaṃ vadeti—
“chandagāminiyo ca bhikkhuniyo … pe …
bhayagāminiyo ca bhikkhuniyo”ti.
Sā taṃ vatthuṃ na paṭinissajjati.
Saṃgho itthannāmaṃ bhikkhuniṃ samanubhāsati tassa vatthussa paṭinissaggāya.
Yassā ayyāya khamati itthannāmāya bhikkhuniyā samanubhāsanā tassa vatthussa paṭinissaggāya, sā tuṇhassa;
yassā nakkhamati, sā bhāseyya.
Dutiyampi etamatthaṃ vadāmi … pe …
etc…

English:
The Order presses her to make her stop. Any nun who approves of pressing her to make her stop should remain silent. Any nun who does not approve should speak up.

MS.2357A second time I speak on this matter …

etc…

There is a whole long sequence in the Pali that isn’t there in the English.

The “needs work” button only works when there is some translation there, so I’ll just put question marks for the English and mark “needs work” for Bhante @sujato to check later on.


#150

Difference in Ss rules between monks ans nuns

In the nuns’ Sanghadisesa rules there is the clause “If she then stops, all is well. If not, then that nun too has committed a third-time offense entailing sending away and suspension.”

This is different in the monks’ rules. There is no ‘sending away’ involved. In some of the nuns’ rules, however, I am not sure what this ‘sending away’ is actually referring to. There are instances where in one rule a nun with a Ss has been ‘sent away’, and in the origin story to the following rule (or next sub-story of the same rule) she is still there, committing the next offense.

It almost looks like in the case of the nuns a Sanghadisesa comes close to a Parajika—or what exactly does this ‘sending away’ mean?

Can anyone give some explanation to this? @brahmali? @sujato?


#151

@sabbamitta, the Pali should read as follows:

Yā passanti yā suṇanti tāhi vattabbā— “māyye, kismiñcideva adhikaraṇe paccākatā kupitā anattamanā evaṃ avaca— ‘chandagāminiyo ca bhikkhuniyo…pe… bhayagāminiyo ca bhikkhuniyo’ti. Ayyā kho chandāpi gaccheyya…pe… bhayāpi gaccheyyā”ti. Dutiyampi vattabbā. Tatiyampi vattabbā. Sace paṭinissajjati, iccetaṃ kusalaṃ; no ce paṭinissajjati, āpatti dukkaṭassa. Sutvā na vadanti, āpatti dukkaṭassa. Sā bhikkhunī saṃghamajjhampi ākaḍḍhitvā vattabbā— “māyye, kismiñcideva adhikaraṇe paccākatā kupitā anattamanā evaṃ avaca— ‘chandagāminiyo ca bhikkhuniyo…pe… bhayagāminiyo ca bhikkhuniyo’ti. Ayyā kho chandāpi gaccheyya…pe… bhayāpi gaccheyyā”ti. Dutiyampi vattabbā. Tatiyampi vattabbā. Sace paṭinissajjati, iccetaṃ kusalaṃ; no ce paṭinissajjati, āpatti dukkaṭassa. Sā bhikkhunī samanubhāsitabbā. “Evañca pana, bhikkhave, samanubhāsitabbā. Byattāya bhikkhuniyā paṭibalāya saṃgho ñāpetabbo—

‘Suṇātu me, ayye, saṃgho. Ayaṃ itthannāmā bhikkhunī kismiñcideva adhikaraṇe paccākatā kupitā anattamanā evaṃ vadeti— “chandagāminiyo ca bhikkhuniyo…pe… bhayagāminiyo ca bhikkhuniyo”ti. Sā taṃ vatthuṃ na paṭinissajjati. Yadi saṃghassa pattakallaṃ, saṃgho itthannāmaṃ bhikkhuniṃ samanubhāseyya tassa vatthussa paṭinissaggāya. Esā ñatti.

Suṇātu me, ayye, saṃgho. Ayaṃ itthannāmā bhikkhunī kismiñcideva adhikaraṇe paccākatā kupitā anattamanā evaṃ vadeti— “chandagāminiyo ca bhikkhuniyo…pe… bhayagāminiyo ca bhikkhuniyo”ti. Sā taṃ vatthuṃ na paṭinissajjati. Saṃgho itthannāmaṃ bhikkhuniṃ samanubhāsati tassa vatthussa paṭinissaggāya. Yassā ayyāya khamati itthannāmāya bhikkhuniyā samanubhāsanā tassa vatthussa paṭinissaggāya, sā tuṇhassa; yassā nakkhamati, sā bhāseyya.

Dutiyampi etamatthaṃ vadāmi…pe… tatiyampi etamatthaṃ vadāmi…pe… .

Samanubhaṭṭhā saṃghena itthannāmā bhikkhunī tassa vatthussa paṭinissaggāya. Khamati saṃghassa, tasmā tuṇhī, evametaṃ dhārayāmī’”ti.

The translation into English should match this Pali text.

The “sending away” expresses the penalty incurred after committing a saṅghādisesa offence. For the monks this is explained elsewhere, but for the nuns it is right there in the rule. “Sending away” just means she is no longer able to stay under the same roof as other nuns. She is excluded from close company of other nuns. In fact, because nuns are not allowed to stay completely apart, the Sangha will elect another nun specifically to stay with her.


#152

Thank you.

If it doesn’t, we are probably not going to change the Pali text. So we will just have to leave these extra parts blank as far as the translation goes. But will leave that up to Bhante Sujato.


So, there is actually no difference between monks and nuns in the Sanghadisesa, except for the one nun staying with the suspended nun. Thanks!


#153

I believe the idea is to change the Pali text wherever it is faulty. But I understand this can only be done off-line and is quite involved. That is why for now we only mark the text as “needs work”. So if you are able to somehow keep marking it, that would be very useful.


#154

Changes are limited to punctuation and markup, but not the text itself.


#155

But the Pali text is wrong. It is different from what is found in MS. Something must have happened when it was transferred to Pootle.


#156

Sorry, I misunderstood.

At the end, when it is all finished, we will run a test to ensure that the Pali is exactly the same as the Mahasangiti original.


#157

I’ve finished bi pj 5-8.
I’m ready for the next set.


#158

Yay! Well done. The next set is the nissaggiya pācittiyas. @Sabbamitta is close to finishing the saṅghādisesas. I will send you the first six rules, which altogether are around 30% shorter than the four pārājikas. I hope this is a suitable amount for you.

Thanks once again for doing all this. I know you have all sorts of other responsibilities, so I do appreciate your commitment. :grinning:


#159

There are similar inconsistencies again in Ss 13. I’m marking them “needs work”.


#160

This would have been true at that point if the match of the Pali and English would have been straightforward. Unfortunately it wasn’t, and so it took all a bit longer…

But now the Ss are finished, and I’m ready to take on the next challenge… :scream:


#161

Excellent! The next challenge is nissaggiya pācittiya 7-12. @Greentara is doing the first six. I will email them to you shortly.