Obesity in the Sangha

Equivalent of hearsay evidence, so far. Not that credible until better documented.

"Thus have I heard. On one occasion the Blessed One was wandering in the Kāsi country together with a large Sangha of bhikkhus. There he addressed the bhikkhus thus:
ā€œBhikkhus, I abstain from eating at night. By so doing, I am free from illness and affliction, and I enjoy lightness, strength, and a comfortable abiding. Come, bhikkhus, abstain from eating at night. By so doing, you too will be free from illness and affliction, and you will enjoy lightness, strength, and a comfortable abiding.ā€
ā€“MN70

This is not a Theravada practice but an expected practice of those who take at least the 8 percepts.

It is said to be a practice of arahants, to be emulated by those observing Uposatha:

ā€œ(6) ā€œā€˜As long as they live the arahants eat once a day, abstaining from eating at night and from food outside the proper time.
Today, for this night and day, I too shall eat once a day, abstaining from eating at night and from food outside the proper time.
I shall imitate the arahants in this respect and the uposatha will be observed by me.ā€™ This is the sixth factor it possesses.ā€
ā€“AN8.41

Eating at the wrong time is an offense of expiation: https://suttacentral.net/en/pi-tv-bu-vb-pc37

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What does abstaining from eating at night have to do with eating one meal a day? Breakfast is morning, lunch is mid-day, and dinner is late afternoon or early evening.

Furthermore, if the early Buddhist monks became accustomed to eating one meal a day, due to relying on alms for food, it wouldnā€™t be surprising if they attributed this practice to the Buddha, whether he taught it or not.

Unless a bhikkhu receives an invitation he should eat once, as soon as he is back from the almsround.

In practice eating once saves heaps to time. In the hermitage where I usually do my yearly retreat I follow the monks and eat only once as well. It is amazing how much time you find out to have to do other things.

Usually by 9 am you are fed, the meal hall is clean and everyone is back to their huts.

By 11 the huts are clean, any laundry done and even some urgent sweeping done around the hut.

Then you are free to meditate (walking or sitting) and / or study the sutras from 11 to 4 pm, when everyone meets up to have coffee, tea or just water and then do the bulk of the sweeping around the place as the temperature cools down into the evening.

By 6 pm everyone has already done their share of work in the place, had their daily (or second) shower and can therefore go back to meditate. Usually a couple of hours of walking meditation and then some sitting, followed by bedtime. Some monks take this time of the day to practice the recitation of the monastic code (Patimokkha), others will do some chanting of recollections, while others just chill out.

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Holy crap. How do they not feel hungry the rest of the day? What about hunger pangs?

I do not. It is all about habit. Right aspiration, or thought, renunciation especifically, helps as well. :slightly_smiling_face:

Note that few items are allowed after twelve, such as sugar, honey, oil, ghee (or cheese), etc. But in theory one should only use such things if he feels his body really needs some extra power.

I have acid reflux, and it makes me feel sick and sometimes throw up acid or bile if I go too long without eating. Other people are diabetic.

Yep, life is tough.

I know a bhikkhu who has a similar issue. He has so far survived, 12 year or so in robes. He is rather skinny but most importantly happy!

I reckon thereā€™s a threshold in oneā€™s practice in which the joy of spiritual life makes all this ā€œpainā€ worth it. Thatā€™s exactly the point the Buddha makes in MN70.

To Gabrielā€™s point, there are some allowables after midday that can be taken if one is not feeling well, including being dizzy from hunger.

When I was a samanera, for example, we woke at 430 am for chanting and meditation, and then the alms round began at around 6 am. Usually, there was time before the pindabaht to get a bowl of rice gruel and an egg on top. Good stuff. Later, after the alms round, the main meal was eaten and finished by about 1100 am.

In the evening there was also chanting and meditation. There were nights, especially after a day of doing sweeping or teaching English, Iā€™d need that bit of cheese (which I would walk 30 minutes into town to buy from the Tesco Lotus to make sure I had a small stock of it). The samaneras, of course, did not have lay attendants, so I kept a debit card on hand for this, and in that part of Thailand, it was not unusual to see monks in the Tesco buying coffee or soap, etc. Itā€™s not great practice akin to the Forest tradition, but it was the norm in northern Thailand where I was. Many nights just coffee was enought to curb hunger, but sometimes I needed a chunk of cheese and the coffee, and all was good.

One of my colleague samaneras had an illness that required him to eat small meals during the entire day. The abbot (normally strict about the rules) allowed him to do this. The point was not to hold him to a rule that would have caused him to suffer or disrobe, but to make a reasonable accommodation for an otherwise excellent samanera.

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Are the eating patterns different between countries?

Dhammagavesi Bhikkhu, I have stayed in a Thai Monastery for 17 months and Ordained as a Samanera

As per the rules of monks (Vinaya) a monk can eat from Sunrise till Solar Noon. Thus a monk can eat any number of times within the stipulated time period. In Theravada tradition these monks rules are generally followed. In other Buddhist traditions they have other restrictions like no meat products can be eaten by monks but that is addition post Buddhaā€™s time. Also some theravada monks eat 3 meals per day against all rules.

I see that many think that having one meal per day is a monk rule which is absolutely wrong, there are no such rules. Buddha encouraged monks to have one meal per day as that is good for health and helps in the meditation practice. It is also part of the 13 ascetic practices (Dhutanga) which is voluntarily taken up as part of the practice.

So in short number of meals a monk has depends upon where he lives like - Thai Forest Tradition (One meal), Sri Lankan Forest tradition (2 meals) and Temple/City monks (3 meals) and I am not aware of Mahayana and Tibetan.

However if we are on the subject of food there is a category of food which is allowed post Solar Noon which are 1) Ghee (clarified butter), 2) Oil, 3) Sugar, 4) Honey, 5) medical herbs- like ginger , 6) Chocolate / Coco powder, 7) Tea/Coffee, 8) Strained Fruit Juice etcā€¦

So you can find monks eating chocolate in the evening and having tea and juice are not cheating in anyway :slight_smile: They have this additional foods allowed to maintain their strength.
https://www.quora.com/How-often-and-how-much-do-buddhist-monks-eat-a-day-in-monasteries

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Not only countries. In Thailand, Dhammayut fraternity (aka nikaya) monks seem to be more consistent and strict about rules.

But there are groups from the Mahanikaya order, such as those related to the forest tradition which stick to a similar strictness to the one followed by Dhammayut monks.

In Sri Lanka I assume that groups such as Amarapura Nikaya follow a similar approach to how monastics should deal with food. A similar thing must happen in Myanmar (I have never been there or dealt with bhikkhus from there).

The Buddhist tradition I am most familiar with is the Jodo Shinshu sect of Pure Land Buddhism, which is the largest sect of Buddhism in Japan.

Jodo Shinshu doesnā€™t have monastics because its founder, Shinran, left the monastic life and started a family.

I think Shinran would say we are all foolish beings of blind passions, and the compassion we try to show to others is more important than the food we eat or at what time we eat.

Ok. Weā€™re all entitled to choose and have point of views. I donā€™t have to convince you or argue over your choice of perspective on the topic.

If you are interested in understanding what EBTs have to say about the practice of not eating at wrong times (i.e. after noon) kindly consider reading MN70.

And of course, do check AN8.41 if you want to learn about the early Buddhist practice of observing Uposatha.

:anjal:

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Of course. I happen to be vegetarian, but mostly for health reasons, rather than religious or ethical reasons.

Something Iā€™ve learned along the way is that trying to convince people of anything about diet is usually unfruitful, no matter what kind of diet that person happens to be following.

I think we can also take a historical-critical perspective of the EBTs, and try to figure out the various historical reasons why the suttas say what they do.

The most important contributions that western and modern academics have contributed to
Buddhist studies is, I think, ā€œhistorical criticism,ā€ also known as higher criticism or the
historical-critical method. This disciplined approach investigates the origins of a text, and
compares them to other texts and traditions of the times or antecedent ones.
Such a disciplined approach has been applied to Bible studies, often enough with disastrous
results. The more research scholars know about such ancient texts, the more they realize the
Bible is not what many believers claim it to be. While the theologian might choose to bowdlerize
or rationalize the disagreeable parts, a more honest scholar might renounce the whole enterprise
for a more purposeful life.1
The historical critical approach to Buddhist studies is, however, clearly beneficial for both the
academic scholar and the Buddhist faithful. The early Buddhist canon was compiled some 2500
years ago in India. The repetitive style of the texts (eg the use of literary devices such as the ring
composition) reflects its oral tradition. The exactness of this oral tradition is reflected today in
the structure of a computer programme.2
http://dharmafarer.org/wordpress/wp-content/uploads/2009/12/RB16-What-Buddha-means_rev.pdf

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Sure. If I may suggest, why not do it in a separate and specific topic?

Feel free to start a topic entitled ā€œHistorical-critical perspective of EBTsā€™ approach to eating after noonā€.

If you donā€™t know how to do it or feel confident to do so ask and someone here may do it for you. :slight_smile:

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Could use some physical exercise/manual labor. I doubt any of the monks in the video below is obese or have diabetesā€¦

I do understand your point, Kensho. But I do feel there is a relationship between some of these practices and the cultivation of compassion and samadhi. The Buddha wasnā€™t about developing rules for the sake of making rules.

If oneā€™s heart and mind is set right, and one;s intentions are focused, these rules and rituals provide enormous meaning and inspiration. By way of example ( and nothing is more boring than hearing someoneā€™s elseā€™s storyā€¦), I eat only before midday, and usually eat the same simple diet each day. Food for me is fuel, not for pleasure or recreation. By observing this practice, I am mindful each day of the path, and also, I am mindful of the Hill Tribe families that struggle to eat every day, consisting of a diet of cheap rice, salt and fish meal. This practice actively fuels my motivation to be of some small service to those that struggle with food insecurity.

Practicing brahmacariyā, for example, has had a profound positive effect on my (work in progress) samadhi. By maintaining these practices, I feel that my garden of Metta and Karuna has a more active and fertile field in which to grow. By drawing attention and energy to the practice, the field is made more vibrant.

I agree with you that the compassion that we develop is more important than the rituals we keep. But, I do feel there is a correlation betwee these rituals and practices, and the quality of the soil that we cultivate in this path of practice. If oneā€™s intentions and heart is set correctly, these practices do facilitate the full development of mindfulness, compassion and love/goodwill, among other qualities.

To the extent that people drift away from the Buddhaā€™s recommendations, including leaders of Buddhist communities, I feel there is an erosion of the quality of the soil for practice, This is not to say that, for example Pure Land priests canā€™t be highly developed practitioners, but it does cause them, in my opinion, just as a farmer raising a harvest, to try to cultivate from soil that is not as fertile and rich.

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We can respectfully agree to disagree. I tend to use a historical-critical perspective when assessing any Buddhist texts, doctrines, or practices.

I can fully agree with that. There are just different expectations for monastics and lay people, and even different expectations between different monastic traditions.

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Indeed.

I am Type 1 and have to take several injections every day just to stay alive and would probably be dead in less than a week, hit by a coma, if I try to stick to the one-meal rule. Itā€™s a wretched situation when one clearly sees monkhood as the way that can carry a person to Release, but canā€™t ever don the robes. And trying to live an ascetic life on oneā€™s own terms, on the outskirts of worldly pursuits is fraught with missteps, falls, dejection etc. when there is a sword hanging over oneā€™s neck every night when turning inā€¦