On moderation and right speech

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I love how, on numerous occasions, @Brahmali and @sujato, demonstrate how to disagree skillfully and kindly. Watching these interactions is a wonderful teaching.

And while @Brenna, @Cara and myself are not so experienced or knowledgable - and we certainly don’t have the advantage of keeping such beautiful sila/restraint - we certainly don’t agree with each other all the time. We do however, respect majority decisions and try actively to work harmoniously and to move towards consensus.

We are doing the best we can and, I’m sure I can speak for Cara and Brenna when I say this, we are truly grateful for the opportunity to volunteer our time for this amazing resource.

The experience of moderating here has thrown up some strange and unexpected problems and difficult decisions had to be made. Much of what goes on is unknown to others and some truly weird stuff has cropped up.

One thing we will always attempt to do is to protect this space, to keep it friendly, gentle and harmonious. Others, in so many threads, have also shown how to disagree with courtesy. This is a truly marvellous thing. One can disagree in a friendly manner.

To be clear though, we moderators are not always going to come across cuddly and warm and fuzzy…some things can’t be sugar coated. Even the monastic rules have this aspect to them (eg: the parajikas!)

And please remember, we’re not robots. We’re doing the best we can. Forgive us if we pull you up on something, have a conversation about it but, move on with grace. And remember, while we try to work within policies and guidelines, we also aim to look at each situation on it’s merits.

And finally, we’re not always going to see everything and be everywhere; nor are we going to be able to respond to everything immediately. We also have other commitments and demands upon our time. But we’ll do our best to get back to you.

Thanks everyone for doing your best too. I am sure everyone is striving to come from the 3 Right Intentions of Renunciation, Loving Kindness and Compassion. Thanks also for raising flags. It helps because, as I already said, we can’t see everything and be everywhere.

Cara and Brenna, I love how we think differently and are so polite when we disagree. I love that I don’t know either of you terribly well and that we’re half a world away from each other. Sometimes, the internet really can be rather useful!

Well, that’s all.

Metta

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Thank you, that makes me very happy. I think it is extremely important that we do disagree, and do so publicly. We need to exemplify the idea that disagreement is normal and healthy, hostility is not.

When we gave a talk together in HK recently, I was so happy that Ven Brahmali disagreed with something I said!

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if there’s a video, can it be watched anywhere?

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It was at the “Mindfulness center”, i don’t know if there was any video.

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probably there wasn’t, just a few pictures

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So far, from what I have seen, you are doing a grand job. Thank you.

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Absolutely.

Some people disagree as they have fixed views and don’t want to be overturned. Other agree because they are not used to thinking things through and it is easier to stay quiet!

Metta

M

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Dear Bhante Sujato & Ajahn Brahmali,

In today’s world, no doubt, Bhante Sujato & Ajahn Brahmali are two monks who are good examples for other monks to follow. They are virtuous, erudite, Pali scholars, good meditators, very good teachers & in essence true Buddha Puttas! So, Bhante, you have got every right to point out when someone is off the rail & help them to be back on track. (I am not bringing in here the monks of the calibre of Ajahn Brahm or Bhante Gunaratana who are of course in a class of their own.) As Ajahn Brahmali has aptly put, if you wouldn’t help them get back on track, who would?

As we know, there are unwholesome acts by body, speech & mind. In this forum, i.e. on Sutta Central, the unwholesome deeds are visible only when they are verbal/(written) misdeeds.

I would like to take this opportunity to point out some minor, bodily misdeeds that seem to be on the increase at some of the Buddhist locations. Some visitors, (a small minority though), to the Dhamma Hall that I attend on Friday nights & on Saturday afternoons don’t seem to have much respect or regard to Buddhist virtues & traditionally accepted good practices. People wearing short skirts/shorts could be seen sitting right in front of the Buddha Statue (& the monk giving the discourse), stretching their legs in full length towards the monk & twisting & wriggling their toes. Couples were seen holding hands & in some instances in passionate embraces. It seems that most people, (if not all), who resort to this sort of minor transgressions don’t seem to have any idea that they are doing the ‘wrong’ thing. Therefore, it would be up to the teacher, (the monk, in this case) to advise & educate the audience of proper etiquette & accepted behaviour in Buddhist centres.

Another minor issue that I notice is the new practice of clapping at the end of the Dhamma Discourse. Normal Buddhist practice is to give three Sadus at the end of the discourse to show the delight in the monks discourse. At the place where I frequently go, there is a new habit of loud clapping at the end of the Dhamma Talk. In my view clapping is good for worldly, materialistic forums like political rallies, economic forums & the like. For meditation centres/Dhamma halls, it would be better to stay with the passive & time-honoured tradition of three Sadus rather than the aggressive clapping.

No doubt, these are minor transgressions but, almost always these minor acts have the potential to develop into major misdeeds. I hope the monks would properly advise the lay people so that the newcomers could start their practice ‘the right way’, right from the inception.

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although some of these acts could be classed as inappropriate and may make me personally feel uncomfortable, i wonder what case could be made against them from the dhammic point of view, dhammically all this could be considered unwholesome if stemming from mean intentions for example, otherwise this is just how people are

you speak of transgressions, what precepts or Buddhist rules do they transgress?

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Hi @Upasako I think you misunderstood the title of the topic.
The word “moderation” here is used in the sense of how this forum is managed by moderators.
Your post is about moderation in the sense of composure and reasonableness by those visiting and hearing the Dhamma from members of the Sangha.
This is definitely an interesting topic and I suggest you create a topic just to address this issue.
:slight_smile:

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when i first saw the title i took it to mean this as well, but the pun was probably intended to begin with

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Dear LXNDR & gnlaera ,
Thank you for your comments. Yes, on the surface, it may appear that they are innocent, very minor, unethical acts which are harmless & therefore, there is no need to do anything about them. On the contrary, the root causes of these acts are planted within the three Roots of the Unwholesome i.e. Greed, Hatred & Delusion. They stem from the Greed for attention by wearing ‘attractive dresses’, Aversion to follow accepted rules/practices and in most cases, more importantly, Delusion, the view that “I could do what I want”. It is the “I” that is the problem! So, they may not transgress any precepts but, these acts have the potential to lead them on the wrong path. So, it is up to the senior, traditional Buddhists & the teachers to point out these things out of compassion.
There is some sort of misunderstanding among some Buddhists that if one just sits & meditates, that alone will help one escape from suffering. As we know, the Lord Buddha’s Teachings consist of three components: Seela, Samadhi and Panna. For beginners, it is Dana, Seela, Bhavana, in that order. Dana & Seela are all about restraining one’s faculties, including the purification of mind, (citta visduddi). Why do the monks & nuns wear a simple robe? Why do the anagarikas, those aspiring to be monks & nuns, wear a simple, white attire? Well, the answer is that the simplicity would undoubtedly help progress on the path to Nibbana. They help develop the four necessary qualities: Cāga (Generously giving up), Patinissagga (Throwing away), Mutti (Freedom) & Analayo (Not clinging).
We could look at this from a different angle, too. When a person dresses inappropriately, behaves inappropriately, speaks inappropriately & writes inappropriately, such actions could not only affect that person but, has the potential to affect the others around that person, too. There is the possibility that it would affect the Sangha, themselves. I know of a number of monks who disrobed due to the influence of female disciples. So, it is up to us to help create the right conditions that would be conducive for our Sangha to practise the Dhamma in the true way. We have to look after our Sangha.
In the very first Sutta of the Aṅguttara Nikaya, (AN1.1 Cittapariyādāna Sutta ), the Lord Buddha teaches us that there are five types of sense objects that overpower the mind of (most) human beings more than any others. They are to a man the form of a woman, the sound of a woman, odour of a woman, taste of a woman & the touch of a woman. So is to a woman the five sense objects coming from a man. Here is an extract of that Sutta relating to the very first one of those five sense objects:

….I do not know, Bhikkhus, of a form that overpowers the mind of a man as much as, Bhikkhus, the form of a   woman. The form of a woman, Bhikkhus, overpowers the mind of a man…..

So, when I wrote my feelings about this matter, it is done with the pure compassion & loving kindness to those who practise the Dhamma with me. They do these things through ignorance. If they wish to stretch their legs or wear shorter clothing, they could sit at the back or lean on to the side walls. That way they wouldn’t be disrespectful to anyone.
Yes, gnlaera, your point is taken that this is not strictly about moderation. Now, that I have already done it here, in this space, I will leave this response, as well, here. :relaxed:

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likewise it may be just my ignorance and sankhara laden “I”, my ego which gets offended by their innocent behavior and interprets it as inappropriate out of aversion towards it

for example i scringe every time i see the bare soles of monastics facing the audience when they bow to the Buddha’s rupa in a Dhamma hall, but i cannot justify my distaste by any ethical standards and call such a posture inappropriate

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Dear LXNDR

Thank you for bringing up these points which are valid & relevant.

When one gets offended, develop compassion or remain equanimeous towards others’ behavior, we know that it happens due to one’s own conditioning. It is not one’s own fault or perfection: simply the conditioning, conditioning from many of our past existences, that’s all! They are the two sides of the same coin!! So, are the reasons for our behaviors, conditioning from our past. Why do we sit down to meditate? We sit down to meditate to develop stillness, thereby reduce/minimise formations (sankara) & gradually chip away our own conditioning that forces us to see the good as the bad & the suffering as the happiness!!!

When we develop insight leading to wisdom, we could see our own thoughts arising from our own conditioning. Then one can deal with these thoughts. As we know, this is not an easy or a quick process: it is a gradual process. The Lord Buddha has discoursed this in many a Suttas. So, when one sees others behavior which is not within the normally accepted ethical frameworks, the first step would be to develop empathy, then develop loving kindness & compassion & then take any action, as one thinks fit. One action may be to do nothing which may not be beneficial to one or to the others. The second option is to do something for the common good of all. When these “non-ethical-behaviors” are pointed out with loving kindness & compassion, not in a vindictive or cruel manner, they are bound to bring in happiness & joy to all. The outcome will come from the source: whether one acts from a malicious mind or from a mind imbued with loving kindness.

We practise the Buddhist path to gradually mitigate the impact of our conditioning & finally eradicate them completely. See Ganaka Moggallana Sutta (MN 107). In that Sutta, the Lord Buddha discoursed to Ganaka Moggallana on the gradual training. Here are some excerpts from that Sutta:
……
Morality
"‘Come you, monk, be of moral habit, live controlled by the control of the Obligations, endowed with [right] behavior and posture, seeing peril in the slightest fault and, undertaking them, train yourself in the rules of training.’ As soon, brahman, as the monk is of moral habit, controlled by the control of the Obligations, endowed with [right] behavior and posture; seeing peril in the slightest fault and, undertaking them, trains himself in the rules of training, the Tathagata disciplines him further saying:…
………
When this had been said, the brahman Ganaka-Moggallana spoke thus to the Lord:
“Now, on being exhorted thus and instructed thus by the good Gotama, do all the good Gotama’s disciples attain the unchanging goal — Nibbana or do some not attain it?”
“Some of my disciples, brahman, on being exhorted and instructed thus by me, attain the unchanging goal — Nibbana; some do not attain it.”
“What is the cause, good Gotama, what the reason that; since Nibbana does exist, since the way leading to Nibbana exists, since the good Gotama exists as adviser, some of the good Gotama’s disciples on being exhorted thus and instructed thus by the good Gotama, attain the unchanging goal — Nibbana, but some do not attain it?”
“Well then, brahman, I will question you on this point in reply. As it is pleasing to you, so you may answer me. What do you think about this, brahman? Are you skilled in the way leading to Rajagaha?”
“Yes, sir, skilled am I in the way leading to Rajagaha.”
"What do you think about this? A man might come along here wanting to go to Rajagaha. Having approached you, he might speak thus: ‘I want to go to Rajagaha, sir; show me the way to this Rajagaha.’ You might speak thus to him: “Yes, my good man, this road goes to Rajagaha; go along it for a while. When you have gone along it for a while you will see a village; go along for a while; when you have gone along for a while you will see a market town; go for a while. When you have gone along for a while you will see Rajagaha with its delightful parks, delightful forests, delightful fields, delightful ponds. But although he has been exhorted and instructed thus by you, he might take the wrong road and go westwards. Then a second man might come along wanting to go to Rajagaha…(as above)… you will see Rajagaha with its delightful… ponds.’ Exhorted and instructed thus by you he might get to Rajagaha safely. What is the cause, brahman, what the reason that, since Rajagaha does exist, since the way leading to Rajagaha exists, since you exist as adviser, the one man, although being exhorted and instructed thus by you, may take the wrong road and go westwards while the other may get to Rajagaha safely?”
“What can I, good Gotama, do in this matter? A shower of the way, good Gotama, am I.”
“Even so, brahman, Nibbana does exist, the way leading to Nibbana exists and I exist as adviser. But some of my disciples, on being exhorted and instructed thus by me attain the unchanging goal — Nibbana, some do not attain it. What can I, brahman, do in this matter? A shower of the way, brahman, is a Tathagata.”
_
We are only the Lord Buddha’s trainee disciples, still practising the path shown by the Lord Buddha. When the Samma Sambuddha Tathagata Gautama Lord Buddha said “What can I, brahman, do in this matter? A shower of the way, brahman, is a Tathagata." then, what can we, do? We could only point out with compassion!

May all being be happy & peaceful!

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in which case what objective reasons and moral higher ground does one have to deem this

inappropriate and

Shouldn’t one just

instead?