Yes, I think the honesty of scientists about their work is certainly part of the general honesty that the Buddhist precepts and path recommend.
I too have wondered if one took the precepts deeply enough whether they would take you all the way to full awakening … e.g. In order to be on guard against the subtler kinds of breeches (thinking carelessly, cultivating minor distractions, etc.) one must increase mindfulness and be increasingly sensitive to the whispers of the suffering mind that indicate the presence of defilement. In order to be safe one needs to deconstruct and understand the mind states and activities that lead to unskillful acts (even of mind). In order to do that one needs to understand the causes and conditions and begin to undermine them … An alert observance is apt to notice that the sense of self is at the core of all suffering … and so on.
On the other hand, Ajahn Sucitto was just here and he argues that we should take the precepts exactly as they are stated, no more and no less. (Not drinking alcohol means just that; the 5th precept doesn’t include refraining from getting engrossed in bad TV that distracts and dulls or provokes the mind, for instance.) By not second guessing or seeing more and more layers one can use the sure confidence and happiness of knowing your own virtue as a base for all the rest of the practice. Many of the experienced teachers say that westerners have a lot of trouble right out of the starting blocks by not being able to appreciate and fully enjoy our own goodness.
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Purification of conduct is definitely the start of the Path.
http://www.accesstoinsight.org/lib/authors/mahasi/progress.html
There are 19 types of virtues are listed in Visuddhimaga.
https://www.dhammawheel.com/viewtopic.php?f=24&t=17596&hilit=#p259951
Nice! Another speculative direction I can sometimes take the precepts in relates to how one purpose they might serve is making one a fully trusted ‘point of safety’ for oneself. Keeping on the edges of my private business, I can at least say that I have found that my sitting practice is generally speaking characterised by muchos of the trepidation. I think wading through that with someone (ie. me) who I know is demonstrably committed to harmlessness may help.
I fully take your point, but at the same time, just want to note, that the only way I myself would be interested in wandering down this line of thought is as a soft contemplation - taking the precepts as more of a reflective spring board, than a stick to beat oneself with. 
Again, I really think this is such an important point (and one I’m personally very grateful to have highlighted just at the minute - much thanks), but as above I think attitude/approach might make some difference to the issue of the amount of extractable confidence and happiness. Returning back to AN 10.176, I do think there is at least some basis for thinking about the precepts more deeply, but that’s quite a different question from thinking about them punitively.
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Idealism and pragmatism can be important frameworks for understanding Buddhism and interpreting the EBT . What you mean by them in this context? More specifically:
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What do you mean by one thing (scientific integrity) being “based on idealism” yet another “course of action” should be “based on pragmatism”?
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Would it make a difference if we summarized the precepts as based on something we might call Buddhist integrity?
This issues are salient for I expect that a translator of the EBT would have a similar mindset to that spoken of by the scientist:
All of this is suggested or implied in my reading by the precepts, the Four Fold Path, etc.
I think that Q drifts a little bit too much away from the EBTs so if you and @dxm_dxm wish to pursue that particular strand, you might mutually find a more suitable place to do it.
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To answer it shortly and try also try to bring it back on topic:
Maybe the scientific principles example was not the best in the world becuase those principles are based on pragmatism to begin with. It’s hard to argue against principles like scientific integrity, respecting them is good in like 99,999% cases. But sometimes people do things based on principles alone forgeting those principles are there cause of pragmatism. And in the case of alcohol, we can have a person attached to the principle witch is there cause of pragmatism. It is helping the person do a good thing by reducing alcohol and is a principle based on pragmatism, but the action itself has idealism involved.
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If I understand you correctly, it strikes me that your point about pragmatism is reasonably relatable to what the Buddha outlines in MN60. I think it’s a very compelling case.
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I’m rather late, but nevermind!
I think upholding precepts are a practice as complex as attaining the jhanas. In fact I think each of the steps of the N8FP are equally complex and takes long to achieve, and are achievable. One of the more useful things this woman told to me once at a temple regarding the precepts was ‘give it time, it will come’, paraphrasing. On the one hand it requires a light touch, not getting bogged down in the details, sticking the basic definition of each one and not indulging in too much remorse.
Reviewing the state of each precept as one proceeds on the path is useful, to identify one’s virtues and weaknesses- just so that next time it comes close to breaking one’s precept there is a memory of it. It is also important to remember that the reason for keeping precepts is that it leads to samadhi, and not an end in itself, allowing to let get and not cling too strongly to it.
with metta
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Couldn’t have put it better. Balances both sides very nicely, in my opinion.
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Thank you Aminah. What sides are those?
On the one hand approaching the precepts in a straightforward, ‘face-value’ kinda way, and on the other allowing the room to engage with a little more profound exploration of them.
To throw in a few extra notes: coming at it from whichever side I think the point about trying to avoid falling into a quagmire of remorse (probably better known as ‘ones ego’) is really worth underscoring. Furthermore, I’m rather keen on your putting the precepts in the same frame of reference as the jhanas - not being quite so shiny, I sometimes feel sila can be a bit overlooked. We can likewise remember that samadhi itself, is not the end, but just a means. All the same, by the suttas both (sila & samadhi) are very evidently of critical importance.
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True.
“Skillful virtues have freedom from remorse (vippaṭisāro) as their purpose, Ananda, and freedom from remorse as their reward.”
We mustn’t assume that we have a choice in whether remorse arises or not. Guilt or remorse can last for years. I think sometimes it is a contributory cause for depressive illness (not proven, of course). Remorse, though unpleasant, might show us the way to wholesome behaviours and therefore be helpful in one sense. Psychopaths are famously without remorse. The fact that it is part of the Five hindrances might point to how widespread the problem is, and it is one reason for there being little joy in people.
It is hard practice and readily incriminates the ego. Jhanas on the other hand…! For those instilling sila (read, brain-training) effort (Viriya), commitment and the reason they are on the path must be profoundly clear.
with metta
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Another good point, very worth making, IMO.
At the same time, where there is room for confusion I’m kinda of keen on nailing down working definitions with whoever it is before going too far in an exchange. Here, there seems to be ample opportunity for ‘remorse’ to mean a whole bunch of things that are far enough apart for us not necessarily to be talking about exactly the same concept. The ‘remorse’ of your earlier “indulging in too much remorse”, to me has quite a different quality to say the ‘reflective remorse’ (perhaps likenable to hiri) that helpfully guides us onto the straight path.
Anyway, again; you make an important point to keep in mind.
Interesting- does the word ‘remorse’ have a sanctimonious or otherwise negative tinge to it, which I might not be culturally aware of?
noun: remorse
deep regret or guilt for a wrong committed.
“they were filled with remorse and shame”
synonyms: contrition, deep regret, repentance, penitence, guilt, feelings of guilt, bad/guilty conscience, compunction, remorsefulness, ruefulness, contriteness, sorrow, shame, self-reproach, self-accusation, self-condemnation; pangs of conscience
“he was filled with remorse”
On the other hand I can think of other ‘secondary gain’ elements which could prolong remorse, such as a core belief such as ‘I deserve to be punished’ or ‘to be punished is good’ or even ‘I am sinner therefore…’.
with metta
Hmmn… I wouldn’t necessarily recognise that particular flavour in the word myself, but couldn’t say for others. I was, however, just using the phrase you’d used before to draw out the point that there is at least some kind of semantic breadth in the word that’s probably worth clarifying when investigating the finer details:
Anyhow, no real need to plough that one any further. Once again, I thought you highlighted some valuable points.
Here’s a ‘proof is in the eating’ method for testing virtues:
"There is the case where the disciple of the noble ones recollects his own virtues, thus: ‘[They are] untorn, unbroken, unspotted, unsplattered, liberating, praised by the wise, untarnished, conducive to concentration.’ As he is recollecting virtue, his mind is calmed, and joy arises; the defilements of his mind are abandoned, just as when a mirror is cleansed through the proper technique. And how is a mirror cleansed through the proper technique? Through the use of oil & ashes & chamois & the appropriate human effort. This is how a mirror is cleansed through the proper technique. In the same way, the defiled mind is cleansed through the proper technique. And how is the defiled mind cleansed through the proper technique? There is the case where the disciple of the noble ones recollects his own virtues… AN3.70
The sutta is really a description of emotional states accessible to stream entrants, Visakha being one, to whom this teaching is given to. IMO, this suggests other factors such as unshakeable faith in the Buddha, Dhamma and Sangha and insights factor into this emotion. Confidence in one’s virtue can sometimes a source of general confidence as well.
with metta
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But still very worth those of us (or at least this particular one of us) with minds still obscured by a much thicker ignorance to contemplate. Much thanks to you for introducing it here. 