Here is my answer from SE. It’s not a claim or anything, just a hypothesis based on my reading of SN48.40. This sutta was very helpful in understanding my emotional states of stress. I hadn’t realized that there was a progression until I read the sutta. Indeed, what’s interesting is that in MN121, there is only the slightest modicum of stress, so this sutta helped me understand the whole progression of suffering:
In this sutta, the following five faculties are transcended as one enters various jhanas:
pain: first jhana
sadness: second jhana
pleasure: third jhana
happiness: fourth jhana
equanimity: “ninth jhana”
Pain is coarser than sadness, for both householders and Noble Ones.
For a householder, someone sad over the death of a loved one might not notice ongoing pain from illness or injury–the personal sadness exceeds the personal pain.
For a mendicant, as personal bodily aches and pains recede with first jhana, one becomes more aware of the immense suffering of others and a sadness arises out of that awareness. Or an older mendicant might feel sadness arise from realizing that Nibbana might be personally unreachable in this very life.
One can also personally experience the relative coarseness of pain vs. sadness without jhana in regular meditation. It’s actually quite interesting to meditate when one is in pain and/or suffering. They both attenuate, but pain attenuates first.
Lastly, just because sadness or pain disappears does not mean one has attained one the above jhanas–there are other conditions. There are also different degrees of pain and sadness.
I think it is good that Patimokkha requires monks to confess declaring jhana because if left unchecked declaring one’s attainments is problematic for the community as a whole.
There is however time and place and Buddha allegedly talked about Jhana to lay people as is evident here;
As he was sitting there the Blessed One said to him, “Householder, you have provided the community of monks with robes, alms food, lodgings, & medicinal requisites for the sick, but you shouldn’t rest content with the thought, ‘We have provided the community of monks with robes, alms food, lodgings, & medicinal requisites for the sick.’ So you should train yourself, ‘Let’s periodically enter & remain in seclusion & rapture.’ That’s how you should train yourself.”
When this was said, Ven. Sariputta said to the Blessed One, "It’s amazing, lord. It’s astounding, how well put that was by the Blessed One: ‘Householder, you have provided the community of monks with robes, alms food, lodgings, & medicinal requisites for the sick, but you shouldn’t rest content with the thought, “We have provided the community of monks with robes, alms food, lodgings, & medicinal requisites for the sick.” So you should train yourself, “Let’s periodically enter & remain in seclusion & rapture.” That’s how you should train yourself.’
"Lord, when a disciple of the noble ones enters & remains in seclusion & rapture, there are five possibilities that do not exist at that time: The pain & distress dependent on sensuality do not exist at that time. The pleasure & joy dependent on sensuality do not exist at that time. The pain & distress dependent on what is unskillful do not exist at that time. The pleasure & joy dependent on what is unskillful do not exist at that time. The pain & distress dependent on what is skillful do not exist at that time. When a disciple of the noble ones enters & remains in seclusion & rapture, these five possibilities do not exist at that time."Piti Sutta: Rapture
In general imo one can talk about anything saying; “This is what the texts say, this is how i interpret it, this is how other people interpret it and this is what i think about it”.
One can also talk about anecdotes as hearsay or as what is claimed without disclosing identifying information.
The cessation of perception and feeling. I quoted the “ninth jhana” because that is not in the suttas. What is in the suttas is four jhanas. Some find it convenient to “add on to the numbers” for stages of immersion, especially the formless ones:
From DN33:
Going totally beyond perceptions of form, with the ending of perceptions of impingement, not focusing on perceptions of diversity, aware that ‘space is infinite’, they enter and remain in the dimension of infinite space. This is the fourth liberation.
Going totally beyond the dimension of infinite space, aware that ‘consciousness is infinite’, they enter and remain in the dimension of infinite consciousness. This is the fifth liberation.
Going totally beyond the dimension of infinite consciousness, aware that ‘there is nothing at all’, they enter and remain in the dimension of nothingness. This is the sixth liberation.
Going totally beyond the dimension of nothingness, they enter and remain in the dimension of neither perception nor non-perception. This is the seventh liberation.
Going totally beyond the dimension of neither perception nor non-perception, they enter and remain in the cessation of perception and feeling. This is the eighth liberation.
Basically the “ninth jhana” would be where you end up after the eight liberation.
One might also just say nibbana. I just quoted it because it is not in the suttas.
EBTs say that only the first four rupa absorptions are ‘jhana’. The immaterial ones aren’t called jhana but faculties or ‘ayatana’ (‘akincannayata’). Both these are conditioned (sankhata) phenomena. Nibbana or the cessation of (perception and feeling) is unconditioned and therefore not jhana.
Better not to call it that because it can indeed be confused with “cessation of perception and feeling” (saññāvedayitanirodha) which comes in fact after the fourth arupa but is not nibbana yet. It seems to ensure at least an anagami status (see e.g. AN 5.166). But anyhow, better to avoid ‘ninth jhana’ in general, and especially for nibbana.
Well by nibbana, I meant nibbana dhatu, ie cessation as an experience, and by Nibbana I meant attaining Nibbana, the events immediately surrounding the attainment as well as the subsequent state of conscious enlightenment! The first is unconscious and the second is conscious, and is a conventional designation for enlightenment.
We can see from the below sutta cessation of perception and feeling (nirodhasamapatti) is different to rupa jhana and arupa ‘dimensions’:
“Monks, there are these nine step-by-step dwellings. Which nine? The first jhāna, the second jhāna, the third jhāna, the fourth jhāna, the dimension of the infinitude of space, the dimension of the infinitude of consciousness, the dimension of nothingness, the dimension of neither perception nor non-perception, the cessation of perception & feeling. These are the nine step-by-step dwellings.” [1]Vihāra Sutta: Dwellings (1)
Nothing is felt, in nirodhasamapatti:
on one occasion Ven. Sariputta was staying near Rajagaha in the Bamboo Grove, the Squirrels’ Feeding Sanctuary. There he said to the monks, “This Unbinding is pleasant, friends. This Unbinding is pleasant.”
When this was said, Ven. Udayin said to Ven. Sariputta, “But what is the pleasure here, my friend, where there is nothing felt?”
"Just that is the pleasure here, my friend: where there is nothing felt.
…
If, as he remains there, he is beset with attention to perceptions dealing with the dimension of nothingness, that is an affliction for him. Now, the Blessed One has said that whatever is an affliction is stress. So by this line of reasoning it may be known how pleasant Unbinding is.
“Furthermore, there is the case where a monk, with the complete transcending of the dimension of neither perception nor non-perception, enters & remains in the cessation of perception & feeling. And, having seen [that] with discernment, his mental fermentations are completely ended. So by this line of reasoning it may be known how Unbinding is pleasant.” Nibbana Sutta: Unbinding
Essentially where the is no disturbance at all, where it is most refined, is where nibbana is.
“First, take a mendicant who, quite secluded from sensual pleasures … enters and remains in the first absorption.
“Idhāvuso, bhikkhu vivicceva kāmehi … pe … paṭhamaṃ jhānaṃ upasampajja viharati.
To this extent the Buddha said that extinguishment is visible in this very life in a qualified sense. …
Ettāvatāpi kho, āvuso, sandiṭṭhikaṃ nibbānaṃ vuttaṃ bhagavatā pariyāyena … pe ….
Furthermore, take a mendicant who, going totally beyond the dimension of neither perception nor non-perception, enters and remains in the cessation of perception and feeling. And, having seen with wisdom, their defilements come to an end.
Puna caparaṃ, āvuso, bhikkhu sabbaso nevasaññānāsaññāyatanaṃ samatikkamma saññāvedayitanirodhaṃ upasampajja viharati, paññāya cassa disvā āsavā parikkhīṇā honti.
To this extent the Buddha said that extinguishment is visible in this very life in a definitive sense.”
Ettāvatāpi kho, āvuso, sandiṭṭhikaṃ nibbānaṃ vuttaṃ bhagavatā nippariyāyenā”ti.
Note the bolded part. There is something further to be stilled aside from perception and feeling:
For someone who has attained the cessation of perception and feeling, perception and feeling have ceased.
Saññāvedayitanirodhaṃ samāpannassa saññā ca vedanā ca niruddhā honti. For a mendicant who has ended the defilements, greed, hate, and delusion have ceased.
Khīṇāsavassa bhikkhuno rāgo niruddho hoti, doso niruddho hoti, moho niruddho hoti. - SuttaCentral
It is natural that seeing with wisdom removes defilement and it is due to the seeing the cessation of the aggregates.
One could argue that cessation of perception & feeling is one thing and Path attainment is another, explaining to what extent these are different in meaning and in word but clearly both do lead to cessation of perception and both lead to the cessation of feeling;
With the cessation of contact there is the cessation of feeling. The way leading to the cessation of feeling is just this Noble Eightfold Path; that is, right view… right concentration.
From the cessation of contact comes the cessation of perception. And just this noble eightfold path is the path of practice leading to the cessation of perception… Parivatta Sutta: The (Fourfold) Round
Thus one can speak of pathfruition as cessation of contact or cessation of feeling, these are to that extent equal!
Lastsly it is clear that also Nibbana is spoken of as where nothing is felt;
When this was said, Ven. Udayin said to Ven. Sariputta, “But what is the pleasure here, my friend, where there is nothing felt?”
"Just that is the pleasure here, my friend: where there is nothing felt.
To that extent The path fruition, Sannavedananirodha and Nibbana undeniably refer to the same thing in that it is attained by cessation of feeling and this is as clear as clear can be.
This could be referring to anupadisesa nibbana, the final breakup of the aggregates, whereas it is the destruction of greed, hate and delusion in this very life that is saupadisesa nibbana, extinguishment with a remainder of fuel-the aggregates.
I don’t believe the suttas are clear that a cessation of experience is either nibbana itself or required for realizing nibbana. But what is crystal clear is that nibbana is the extinguishment of the fire of greed, the fire of hate, the fire of delusion.
“Mendicants, I will teach you the unconditioned and the path that leads to the unconditioned. Listen … And what is the unconditioned? The ending of greed, hate, and delusion. This is called the unconditioned.
“Mendicants, I will teach you the undefiled …
the truth …
the far shore …
the subtle …
the very hard to see …
the unaging …
the constant …
the not falling apart …
the invisible …
the unproliferated …
the peaceful …
the deathless …
the sublime …
the state of grace …
the sanctuary …
the ending of craving …
the incredible …
the amazing …
the untroubled …
the not liable to trouble …
extinguishment …
the unafflicted …
dispassion …
purity …
freedom …
not adhering …
the island …
the protection …
the shelter …
the refuge …”
“Mendicants, I will teach you the haven and the path that leads to the haven. Listen … And what is the haven? The ending of greed, hate, and delusion. This is called the haven. - SN43.12-44
It is an extraordinary claim because it was proclaimed before Parinibbana. The Buddha says;
"Now, as long as I did not have direct knowledge of the fourfold round with regard to these five > clinging-aggregates, I did not claim to have directly awakened to the unexcelled right self-awakening
…
"I had direct knowledge of feeling…
"I had direct knowledge of perception…
…
"I had direct knowledge of consciousness… of the origination of consciousness… of the cessation of consciousness… of the path of practice leading to the cessation of consciousness.Parivatta Sutta: The (Fourfold) Round
It is clearly stated here that he had direct knowledge of cessation of these…
You can believe it or not, it does not change what the Sutta say nor does it fabricate any evidence to support your assertions. If you say that you don’t believe it and are not going to accept it because it is difficult to understand or is disagreeable then you are free to do so but having looked at the texts i hope you at least accept that it is what the texts seem to suggest.
It was not my intention to dismiss your perplexity as being due to stupidity or to deem it not a valid point of controversy. As a matter of fact these matters are not entirely to me;
Difference between discernment release and awareness release
Difference between The Removal and The Destruction of Delusion
Difference between Signless or Themeless awareness release and Unprovoked Awareness Release
What is the proper way of explaining the difference in meaning and word in regards to these expressions
Awareness release can be spoken of in these terms;
Now, to the extent that there is theme-less awareness-release, the unprovoked awareness-release is declared the foremost. And this unprovoked awareness-release is empty of passion, empty of aversion, empty of delusion. Mahavedalla Sutta: The Greater Set of Questions-and-Answers
So is it with Nibbana;
“This, bhikkhu, is a designation for the element of Nibbāna: the removal of lust, the removal of hatred, the removal of delusion.
Another thing which is clear from the Sutta is that a non-arahant can attain Signless release and so is it with Cessation of Perception and Feeling.
According to commentary;
Emptiness, the signless, & the undirected are names for a state of concentration that lies on the threshold of Unbinding. They differ only in how they are approached. According to the commentary, they color one’s first apprehension of Unbinding: a meditator who has been focusing on the theme of inconstancy will first apprehend Unbinding as signless; one who has been focusing on the theme of stress will first apprehend it as undirected; one who has been focusing on the theme of not-self will first apprehend it as emptiness. (From footnotes to Kamabhu Sutta: With Kamabhu 2 (On the Cessation of Perception & Feeling))
Are the commentators correct in their assertion? Is also a reasonable question.
Now if a person was to attain this foremost unprovoked awareness release he attains a state without Delusion.
Does this mean that he is without delusion after emerging from the unprovoked attainment?
Does this mean that the state discerned by entering the attainment is void of delusion?
Does this mean both that the state discerned by entering the attainment is void of delusion and that one who emerges from it is void of delusion?
Is it so that the state discerned by entering the attainment is void of delusion and one who emerges from it is sometimes entirely free from delusion; sometimes not entirely free from delusion?
Those are all valid questions as i see it and even tho i have some idea about these problems i wouldn’t claim to have all the answers and am to some extent certainly ignorant.
The way i understand it is that there comes a time when due to tranquility and insight one gains unsurpassable release and discerns this state which is void of delusion. Due to the discernment of this state after emerging from the attainment some or all of the delusion in him is removed depending on prior development.
If one is not fully without delusion after emerging, one then further relying on that release, develops and cultivates it until Delusion is fully removed as one emerges an Arahant.
