Paccittiya 8 & teaching laity

Please share your findings when you are done. :anjal:

All sorts of things seem to be called uttari manussadhamma, like for example in MN 128 seeing light and forms.

But while you abide thus diligent, ardent, and resolute, have you attained any superhuman states, a distinction in knowledge and vision worthy of the noble ones, a comfortable abiding?”
“Venerable sir, as we abide here diligent, ardent, and resolute, we perceive both light and a vision of forms.

Another thing I was wondering about is what people make of suttas like MN 127, where Anuruddha gives a talk about various devas in the presence of a householder. Then another bhikkhu asks about his personal experience and Anuruddha openly confirms that he is able to associate with them.

When this was said, the venerable Abhiya Kaccāna said to the venerable
Anuruddha: “Good, venerable Anuruddha. The venerable Anuruddha does not
say: ‘Thus have I heard’ or ‘It should be thus.’ Rather, the venerable Anuruddha
says: ‘These gods are thus and those gods are such.’ It occurs to me, venerable
sir, that the venerable Anuruddha certainly has previously associated with
those deities and talked with them and held conversations with them.”
“Certainly, friend Kaccāna, your words are offensive and discourteous, but still I
will answer you. Over a long time I have previously associated with those
deities and talked with them and held conversations with them.”
When this was said, the venerable Abhiya Kaccāna said to the carpenter
Pañcakanga: “It is a gain for you, householder, it is a great gain for you that
you have abandoned your state of doubt and have had the opportunity to hear
this discourse on the Dhamma.”

So Anuruddha used wording that gave his listeners a hint that he had these attainments. Then he also openly confirmed it. Did the precept not yet exist then? Did Anuruddha break it? Are these attainments not considered uttarimanussa? Is it not a breach of the precept because Anuruddha was talking to a monk, even though a layperson was present? Were early monastics just as puzzled about the precept as we are today?
It also seems that even among monastics such questions about attainments were considered discourteous. So even in the Buddha’s day, monastics might have been reluctant to talk about these things with each other. Or maybe the discourteous part was just the questioning in public? :confused:

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