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Paccittiya 8 & teaching laity


#109

The Buddha does not always speak of ending defilement by seeing with wisdom completely;

  1. “What kind of person is one attained-to-view? Here some person does not contact with the body and abide in those liberations that are peaceful and immaterial,trascennding forms, but some of his taints are destroyed by his seeing with wisdom, and he has reviewed and examined with wisdom the teachings proclaimed by the Tathāgata. The Middle Length Discourses of the Buddha - Selections | Wisdom Publications

It is natural that seeing with wisdom removes defilement and it is due to the seeing the cessation of the aggregates.

One could argue that cessation of perception & feeling is one thing and Path attainment is another, explaining to what extent these are different in meaning and in word but clearly both do lead to cessation of perception and both lead to the cessation of feeling;

With the cessation of contact there is the cessation of feeling. The way leading to the cessation of feeling is just this Noble Eightfold Path; that is, right view… right concentration.

From the cessation of contact comes the cessation of perception. And just this noble eightfold path is the path of practice leading to the cessation of perception… Parivatta Sutta: The (Fourfold) Round

Thus one can speak of pathfruition as cessation of contact or cessation of feeling, these are to that extent equal!

Lastsly it is clear that also Nibbana is spoken of as where nothing is felt;

When this was said, Ven. Udayin said to Ven. Sariputta, “But what is the pleasure here, my friend, where there is nothing felt?”

"Just that is the pleasure here, my friend: where there is nothing felt.

To that extent The path fruition, Sannavedananirodha and Nibbana undeniably refer to the same thing in that it is attained by cessation of feeling and this is as clear as clear can be.


#110

This could be referring to anupadisesa nibbana, the final breakup of the aggregates, whereas it is the destruction of greed, hate and delusion in this very life that is saupadisesa nibbana, extinguishment with a remainder of fuel-the aggregates.

I don’t believe the suttas are clear that a cessation of experience is either nibbana itself or required for realizing nibbana. But what is crystal clear is that nibbana is the extinguishment of the fire of greed, the fire of hate, the fire of delusion.

“Mendicants, I will teach you the unconditioned and the path that leads to the unconditioned. Listen … And what is the unconditioned? The ending of greed, hate, and delusion. This is called the unconditioned.

“Mendicants, I will teach you the undefiled …

the truth …

the far shore …

the subtle …

the very hard to see …

the unaging …

the constant …

the not falling apart …

the invisible …

the unproliferated …

the peaceful …

the deathless …

the sublime …

the state of grace …

the sanctuary …

the ending of craving …

the incredible …

the amazing …

the untroubled …

the not liable to trouble …

extinguishment …

the unafflicted …

dispassion …

purity …

freedom …

not adhering …

the island …

the protection …

the shelter …

the refuge …”

“Mendicants, I will teach you the haven and the path that leads to the haven. Listen … And what is the haven? The ending of greed, hate, and delusion. This is called the haven. - SN43.12-44


#111

It is an extraordinary claim because it was proclaimed before Parinibbana. The Buddha says;

"Now, as long as I did not have direct knowledge of the fourfold round with regard to these five > clinging-aggregates, I did not claim to have directly awakened to the unexcelled right self-awakening

"I had direct knowledge of feeling…

"I had direct knowledge of perception…

"I had direct knowledge of consciousness… of the origination of consciousness… of the cessation of consciousness… of the path of practice leading to the cessation of consciousness.Parivatta Sutta: The (Fourfold) Round

It is clearly stated here that he had direct knowledge of cessation of these…


#112

You can believe it or not, it does not change what the Sutta say nor does it fabricate any evidence to support your assertions. If you say that you don’t believe it and are not going to accept it because it is difficult to understand or is disagreeable then you are free to do so but having looked at the texts i hope you at least accept that it is what the texts seem to suggest.


#113

To what extent though? What if complete removal of the three fires lead to Cessation? :smile:


#114

It seems this thread has wandered a quite a bit off of the intended path. Just a quick reminder of the topic of this thread in regards to Paccittiya 8 and teaching laity:


#115

It was not my intention to dismiss your perplexity as being due to stupidity or to deem it not a valid point of controversy. As a matter of fact these matters are not entirely to me;

  • Difference between discernment release and awareness release
  • Difference between The Removal and The Destruction of Delusion
  • Difference between Signless or Themeless awareness release and Unprovoked Awareness Release
  • What is the proper way of explaining the difference in meaning and word in regards to these expressions

Awareness release can be spoken of in these terms;

Now, to the extent that there is theme-less awareness-release, the unprovoked awareness-release is declared the foremost. And this unprovoked awareness-release is empty of passion, empty of aversion, empty of delusion. Mahavedalla Sutta: The Greater Set of Questions-and-Answers

So is it with Nibbana;

“This, bhikkhu, is a designation for the element of Nibbāna: the removal of lust, the removal of hatred, the removal of delusion.

Another thing which is clear from the Sutta is that a non-arahant can attain Signless release and so is it with Cessation of Perception and Feeling.

According to commentary;

Emptiness, the signless, & the undirected are names for a state of concentration that lies on the threshold of Unbinding. They differ only in how they are approached. According to the commentary, they color one’s first apprehension of Unbinding: a meditator who has been focusing on the theme of inconstancy will first apprehend Unbinding as signless; one who has been focusing on the theme of stress will first apprehend it as undirected; one who has been focusing on the theme of not-self will first apprehend it as emptiness. (From footnotes to Kamabhu Sutta: With Kamabhu 2 (On the Cessation of Perception & Feeling))

  • Are the commentators correct in their assertion? Is also a reasonable question.

Now if a person was to attain this foremost unprovoked awareness release he attains a state without Delusion.

  • Does this mean that he is without delusion after emerging from the unprovoked attainment?
  • Does this mean that the state discerned by entering the attainment is void of delusion?
  • Does this mean both that the state discerned by entering the attainment is void of delusion and that one who emerges from it is void of delusion?
  • Is it so that the state discerned by entering the attainment is void of delusion and one who emerges from it is sometimes entirely free from delusion; sometimes not entirely free from delusion?

Those are all valid questions as i see it and even tho i have some idea about these problems i wouldn’t claim to have all the answers and am to some extent certainly ignorant.

The way i understand it is that there comes a time when due to tranquility and insight one gains unsurpassable release and discerns this state which is void of delusion. Due to the discernment of this state after emerging from the attainment some or all of the delusion in him is removed depending on prior development.
If one is not fully without delusion after emerging, one then further relying on that release, develops and cultivates it until Delusion is fully removed as one emerges an Arahant.

Anyway back to topic.


split this topic #116

A post was split to a new topic: What is the difference between the dimension of nothingness and the cessation of perception and feeling