Pali / Sanskrit relationships to Semitic languages

The Watercooler
41

There’s something to be said arguing in favour of the “King Jamesy” buddhavacana translations from the late 1800s and early 1900s for fulfilling a need. A “Qurany” translation could serve the same purpose for Arabs. Arab Christians did not have a mainstream authoritative Bible translation into Arabic until the 1800s based on the rhetoric that previous translations could not match the poetry of the Quran, its beauty being framed as supernatural. Before the 1800s, believe it or not, most Arab Christians worshipped in Greek. It was only with the publishing of an “elegant” classical Arabic translation in the 1800s that Arab Christians had their “KJV.” So there is something to be said for “elegant” translations so long as they are also clear and accurate.

BTW, “vacana,” yet another Indo-European word that looks like a Semitic root, but isn’t one. Alas! On a different note, however, we see موت “maut” in Arabic, related to “mita(k)” in Ancient Egyptian and mūtu in Akkadian and mavet in Hebrew. Because we see Ancient Egyptian listed among the cognates, we know that this word is extremely old. This word is quite possibly related to Sanskrit/Indo-European mṛtyu because of it’s antiquity. It could well be an ancient, very ancient, borrowing. But there is little direct evidence.

We can see “mitak” attested in the Pyramid texts.

ankh ankh en mitak
yewk er heh en heh
aha en heh
ya inen makhent en ra,
rud akit em mehit
em khentik er she nerserser
em netcher khert
Live life, thou shalt not die
Thou shall exist for millions
of millions of years
For millions of millions of years
Hail, bringer of the boat of Ra
Strong are thy sails in the wind
As thou sailest over the Lake of Fire
In the Underworld

I have a pet theory that at one point, “suttas” were śrutas, things that you had “heard,” but that doesn’t explain the gemination of the T in Pali, which is more easily describable as a reduction of the “tr” that retains its timing unit.

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42

Well, in Prakrits sutta- was equivalent to Skt. śrotra- ‘ear’, and śruta- (amongst other forms). I’m not sure one could convincingly make the same case for Pali sutta-. However, other options still exist.

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evaṃ me suttaṃ
evaṃ mayā śrūtaṃ

The “tt” can be compensation for ū to u.

Hardly conclusive evidence though.

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44

Is this reading with -tt- well supported for forms that are (historically) perfect passive participles of the verb ‘to hear’?
The edited form here on SC is sutaṃ.

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45

Considering that you mentioned this word, it was one of the example words i wanted to discuss with you later.

in Sanskrit Shanti mantra:

asato ma sad gamaya
damaso ma jyotir gamaya
mrtyor ma amrtam gamaya

Saad means happiness in arabic سعد
damaso have an arabic equivalent of Daamis دامس (the character of Dark)
mrtyor: arabic equivalent is Mawt موت
Amrtam in arabic we have Umr Taam عُمر تام which means Full Age.

Sahara is not an Quranic arabic or Pre-quranic-arabic word. I hadn’t seen [yet] an attestation of this word in Quran or earlier arabic paleography. It’s obviously loaned, from where it’s loaned [I don’t know]. we see desert areas is expressed using البدو word Al-Badw[u] in Quran. coming from the verb Ba-da-a بَدَى which means seen [visually or non-visually], because the desert land is seen entirely without any buildings that masks the vision. then, arabic speakers used Al-Baadiya[h] البادية instead of Quranic Al-Badw[u] البدو.

46

I appreciate our difference of opinion, but the way you have me quoted has it looking like I think Sahara means “ocean.” This is your stance it seems, but not mine. As for this:

I think this is folk etymology based on false friends that sound alike but have no significant linguistic relationship. That being said, making an instructional pun between the two based on their similar sounds wouldn’t be “wrong” per se, but it’s not something backed up by significant evidence. Umr is its own word. It is not formed from negating “mr.”

I wasn’t aware! I thought the past participle had a geminated T because I had usually seen it spelled like that.

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47

I quoted you saying sahara is deserts.

but Desert in Arabic is Badwu, then evolved to Baadiyah. Sahara now is used to refer to deserts, but it is not of Arabic origin.

48

Umr in Arabic comes from ع-م-ر 'A-M-R :Aged
Taam in arabic comes from T-M-M which means: making full, complete.

49

You’re Welcome, Dear Sir.

Thanks to all of contributors into this Thread.

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50

I would also like to echo Muhammad’s query regarding your recommendations for sources of information.

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51

Hi,

I sent Muhammad some links in a personal message, but I would recommend reading a general textbook of Indo-European linguistics, e.g.:

Beekes, R. Comparative Indo-European Linguistics: An Introduction.
Clackson, J. Indo-European Linguistics: An Introduction

These can be hard going for the non-specialist, but the comparative method being discussed here is complex and, as I pointed out above, has little to do with finding words in different languages that just happen to sound somewhat similar.

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52

But when the going gets tough one can always take a break and sing Nancy Dray’s delightful parody of Gilbert and Sullivan’s Modern Major-General:

THE VERY MODEL FOR HISTORICAL COMPARISON

I have the very model for historical comparison,
For reconstructing languages when data is as rare as in
The case of pre-Nostratic (or perhaps it’s post-Atlantean—
I always have preferred a task whose compass is Gargant’ian);
For I know all the mythologic functions Dumezilian,
And I can trace our species back to ancestors reptilian;
In all, I seek the broadest view, for by my ideology
The details are just residue left over from typology.

Chorus
The details are just residue left over from typology,
The details are just residue left over from typology,
The details are just residue left over from typo-polo-gy.

Thus for all forms of pedantry I offer up this medicine:
The weighty methodology of old we’ll have to jettison.
To link the tongues of everyone from Hottentot to Saracen,
We’ll need another model for historical comparison.

Chorus
To link the tongues of everyone from Hottentot to Saracen,
We’ll need another model for historical comparison.

The sticklers and the “splitters” sitting in their ivory edifice
Must take the blame for having let the Russians get ahead of us,
For if they are so quick to pale when some small detail menaces,
How do they ever hope to reach linguistic monogenesis?
While they’re immersed in Lycian and Lydian and Luwian,
I’ve reconstructed ‘water’ terms ante- and post-diluvian!
I simply use the handbooks that the forms are predigested in
And waste no time on learning every language they’re attested in.

Chorus
He wastes no time on learning every language they’re attested in,
He wastes no time on learning every language they’re attested in,
He wastes no time on learning every language they’re attested-tested in.

So many forms share elements (and meanings if you think a bit);
Morphology’s impediments I set aside or shrink to fit.
Indeed I am quite certain (although others seem to vary some)
Mine is the very model for historical comparison.

Chorus
He really is quite certain (although others seem to vary some)
His is the very model for historical comparison.

Now some may say we “lumpers” are just megalocomparative,
Displaying our propensity for hyperbolic narrative,
But who can match our progress, going speedier and speedier—
Just look at the attention we’ve been getting in the media(r)!
Where fainter hearts are loath to tread, that’s where you’ll
find me wandering,
Assembling the parallels the “splitting” clan are squandering;
I’m keen to bag the languages they always thought akin to none
By stepping 'round the finer points and joining them all into one.

Chorus
He’s stepping 'round the finer points and joining them all into one,
He’s stepping 'round the finer points and joining them all into one,
He’s stepping 'round the finer points and joining them all into into
one.

There’s Basque and Burushaski, let us not forget Sumerian,
Or scratchings unidentified on tablets antiquarian;
I let no language go astray—‘twould just be too embarrassin’
And mar my perfect model for historical comparison.

Chorus
He lets no language go astray—‘twould just be too embarrassin’
And mar his perfect model for historical comparison.

Nancy L. Dray
Department of Linguistics
University of Chicago
1991

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53

:joy: This is amazing.

54

Here’s another one, this time for specialists in Semitic languages.

I am the Very Model of a Biblical Philologist

by Joshua Tyra

with deference due to William S. Gilbert

I am the very model of a biblical philologist.
I’m quite the Semitician and a passing Hittitologist.
My articles are free from all grammatical iniquity.
I rank Semitic cognates in their order of propinquity.

I am very well acquainted, too, with matters exegetical.
I side with all the orthodox, and censure the heretical.
In print, I wrinkle brows of any liberal who wrinkles mine,
(bothered for a rhyme)
Wrinkles mine, wrinkles mine… got it!
And counter all the theses of that vigilante Finkelstein!

Then I can give a lecture on the logic of Leviticus
And tell you every symbol in the apparatus criticus.
In short, in matters lexical, semantic, and homologous,
I am the very model of a biblical philologist!

I know my St. Jerome and all his Vulgate Prolegomena.
I’ve memorized, in order, all the known hapax legomena!
Then I can tell the age of every patriarch in Genesis
And tell the daghesh fortés from the shureqs and the lenéses.

I dream in Aramaic and interpret it in Syriac.
I’ve posited that Esau was a possible porphyriac.
Then I can parse at sight a polal, hithpolal or hishtaphel
(bothered for a rhyme)
Hishtaphel, hishtaphel… oh, that’s a hard one… got it!
And topple any argument it happens that I wish to fell!

Then I can date a sample of Arabian calligraphy
And tell you what the scribe was wearing, based on the epigraphy!
In short, in matters lexical, semantic, and homologous,
I am the very model of a biblical philologist!

Then I can write a shopping list in classical Sumerian,
And tell you whether peoples were nomadic or agrarian.
I know the Jewish festivals, Purimic and Kippurian.
I mumble in Mandaic, I can hum a little Hurrian.

Then I can sing the alphabet in Hieroglyphic Luwian,
And catalogue the animals, both pre- and postdiluvian.
Then I can tell a surplice from a chasuble or maniple.
(bothered for a rhyme)
Maniple, maniple… got it!
And reconstruct the library of ancient Assurbanipal.

I wrote my dissertation in a flowery Akkadian
And proved the Philistines were almost certainly Canadian.
In short, in matters lexical, semantic, and homologous,
I am the very model of a biblical philologist!

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