Palmistry, Predictions, Psychic phenomena and Changing Fate

Sir I would say by reading suttas, it seems clear to me that those disciples of Buddha(mahakassapa, ananda and so on…) were far more wiser and capable than you and me and many others. Just by looking how they answered questions or how they even asked questions or how they converted other people…it seems pretty clear to me that they were very capable and far more advanced than us! Don’t you think they would have done this task of transmitting teachings by keeping them as pure as possible, very efficiently? Don’t you think they would have made sure that dhamma reaches to future generations as purely as possible? Atleast to me it seems yes…because that conversations they seem flawless to me atleast! And I think that’s enough proof for me to trust those texts.

One thing I suppose you know the discovery of Higgs boson the god particle which dies almost instantly as its formed. Something like this is actually given in abhidhamma called kalapas. In theravada Buddhist phenomenology, Kalapas are defined as the smallest units of physical matter. Kalapas are described as tiny units of materiality, “tens of thousands of times smaller than a particle of dust,” coming into existence and disappearing in as little as a billionth of a second or a trillionth of the blink of an eye. And science has found proof for that now. But through meditation it is possible to perceive that phenomenon inside our body directly!

I suppose you know Vipassana insight meditation…if we progress through it we can feel sensations/vibrations on our body itself and if we continue to do it whole body can be seen as a sensation/vibration. When whole body is seen as sensation our attachment to this body reduces because we are seeing impermanence directly in our body! And after seeing impermanence in this way we see smallest particles in our body constantly forming and decaying! Now after seeing this inside our body by ourself we know that this body is not worth getting attached to and then when we drop our attachment to this body…we get the glimpse of permanence, glimpse of immortality, glimpse of nirvana.

Now why I explained Vipassana above which you probably know. I wanted to show that …the Higgs boson discovery actually became so late and in our texts its mentioned already and even through experience we can see that. So do you still really think science can be the perfect parameter for judging something? I am not saying it is bad parameter it is actually best parameter, all I am saying is that it’s not complete, it is lacking in many things and is imperfect. Above evidence I provided is a proof that whatever discoveries are mentioned in texts(buddhism) science hasn’t yet fully discovered. What I am saying is that…whatever things which are possible through science such as flying, hearing things from far away(through transmission), seeing inside our body without cutting open(x-rays and all), and so on, all of these things actually can be done through our mind also just as we can perceive Higgs boson inside as well as outside and that’s what constitutes supernatural.

Here also by supernatural I don’t mean bigfoot, alien abductions are real things…these things i don’t think exist because they don’t feel scientific to me. By supernatural I meant extension of our abilities! I mean whatever we can do with body we can do that with our mind also…just as we can see Higgs boson with our mind.

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Well. There’s an issue with the Theravada model of kalapas, which as far as I know is not in EBT, so I wouldn’t place too much faith in it.

Kalapas in the Theravada model doesn’t corresponds to any of the particles in particle physics.

Say from Knowing and Seeing (5th ed) by Pa Auk.

Colour (vaõõa), the fifth type of materiality to be discerned, is the object of sight , and is found in all rupa-kalàpas. It is very easily known with a mind consciousness alone, because by seeing the rupa-kal- àpas you have already seen colour. Colour is always the colour of some- thing, and that something is the four elements.

Well, if we stick to visible colours, it’s about 500 nm for wavelength, go smaller than that, then we can’t see the things, as it’s smaller than visible light. Atoms are around 1nm size. We use electron microscope to see atoms, not visible light microscope. Needless to say, subatomic particles are even smaller.

Say we be generous and give that light can mean gamma ray with very small wavelength as long as we got enough energy for the photon (light). There’s issue with the next few properties of kalapa.

Odour (gandha), the sixth type of materiality to be discerned, is the object of smell and is also found in all rupa kalapas, because it is a lifelong habit to use the nose to smell with, you will in the beginning need a nose consciousness to help you know odour with a mind consci- ousness.

Flavour (rasa) is the seventh type of materiality to discern, is the object of taste (rasàrammaõa), and is also found in all rupa-kalàpas. As with the nose, you will in the beginning need a tongue consciousness to help you know flavour with a mind consciousness. And here too, you need first to discern the materiality that the two types of consciousness depend on: the tongue translucency and heart materiality. Having done that, you then discern the flavour of a rupa-kalàpa. You can take a rupa-kalàpa from the saliva on your tongue.

Molecules are the smallest unit whereby smelling and tasting are discerned. If each rupa kalapa has molecules which can break off from it for it to be smelt and tasted, then… it’s certainly not subatomic size.

Also, do learn more about particle physics before placing too much importance to Higgs’ boson.

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Venerable sir I will keep that in mind from now on. Thank you for pointing out the mistake!

My path was like this:

I had to give myself permission to “try on” a belief in reincarnation “temporarily” by framing it as an experiment. Just to see what having the belief would be like … I was so scared to give up my “scientific” identity and embrace something so “out there” So yeah, no amount of arguing online is going to convince anyone, @NgXinZhao Btw: do you have a new Dharma name, brother? You said in the other thread you finally got full ordination? If so: congratulations!

Yup in Profile - NgXinZhao - Discuss & Discover Paññādhammika

Thanks!

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I am trying to gauge if it is worth putting a chapter on rebirth evidences in my Physics and Buddhism book. Much of the book already addresses that Buddhism is largely compatible with Physics, no need for secular Buddhism, so the main issue which secular Buddhist might have issue with is rebirth, which could be important to include, so the book can be used as a defence of Buddhism against the perceived need to transform Buddhism to secular Buddhism to fit in with science.

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Yeah, I think the main things are going to be the “mundane right view” stuff: rebirth, heaven/hell, karma, etc.

Well congratulations again, and welcome to the Bhikkhu Sangha! May your holy life be fruitful! :grin::pray:

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How difficult would it be for a child to gain access to said details ahead of time? It seems very easy to me, and this is the most likely situation (Occam’s Razor).

It is no different than Christian children preaching the gospel and speaking in tongues… they were either taught by their parents, or came across it on their own… but it is not real, it’s fiction.

I see this as exactly the same thing as children pretending they are viewing past lives. It’s fraud.

I have my doubts that could even be proven… much less was proven… how could you prove a child never had access to information? Were you watching them 24/7 for 5+ years?

As far as I am aware, children are not able to view past lives in the suttas. This is solely an ability of an awakened/enlightened mind. Unless these children are already Buddhas/Arahants, I see no reason for anyone to believe their stories. It really is super easy to make this stuff up.

Yes and no… how many pages of text are there in the Pali canon? According to Wikipedia, there are over 80,000 pages of text in the Pali canon… I am familiar with oral traditions, as I learned one myself about 20 years ago… it takes a long time to memorize even 1 page of text, much less 80,000 pages… it simply is not possible for any 1 person to pass 80,000 pages of text in an oral tradition… literally impossible for anyone but a savant.

Sure, maybe there were 80 monks who each memorized 1,000 pages of text… that’s perhaps a possibility, but what if one of them died unexpectedly? Now we lost more than 1% of the original text.

Have you ever played “the telephone game”? It is not easy to pass along even a simple message, word for word. But you expect me to believe that these early monks not only memorized 80,000 pages of Buddha’s speeches in real time (while he spoke them), and passed them along for 500 years without a single flaw? I cannot believe that, no.

Does it die? I’ve never heard any scientist claim such a thing. And the term “god particle” has nothing at all to do with gods.

Is that your experience?

The Higgs boson is not mentioned in the Pali texts. You are falling victim to confirmation bias. You are trying to make the puzzle pieces fit when they do not. I typically see this from Muslims, who want to claim that the Qur’an is super scientific when it is not.

It isn’t perfect, but it is the only tool for finding truth vs fiction. The scientific method works, but it cannot answer every question… supernatural claims are, by definition, outside the realm of science, which deals specifically with the natural world. If something supernatural had an effect on the natural world, then it could be studied by science… but then it would be natural, not supernatural.

This is the definition of confirmation bias. Choosing to believe in a conclusion, then searching for evidence to support the preconceived conclusion.

Sir I agree remembering even single page is very hard for us but not everyone can be same. We all have different abilities, some people do have extraordinary memory. Still buddha was a single historical person who taught all these things…what do you think how Buddha knew all this? Did he study? How was he even able to remember all the things he taught? Surely there is no evidence that he used to study regularly. I hope you believe atleast that Buddha’s capability and our capability is not same. We can agree that buddha was wisest one having greatest wisdom (evidence for this is texts itself)…if not how could he even teach this much amount of teachings!?
So if Buddha could teach this much (80000 pages or whatever the number) don’t you think his disciples could be having… not equal to him but still extraordinary ability to memorize unlike us in today’s time? Saying that brain capacity of his disciples and today’s humans like us is same, would be foolish thing don’t you agree!?

Sir you said it simply is not possible for one person to pass 80000 of pages in oral tradition. Why do you think there can be no better or capable person(or persons) than us? For example I can’t play football like Ronaldo…so it would be wrong for me to say that football can’t be played properly by anyone! How can I think or say that if I can’t do it then noone can? Because the way Ronaldo plays it simply looks impossible…still he makes impossible possible. It applies to every field. Every field has legends whose capabilities are way higher than average humans.

By death I meant that Higgs boson is particle which decays very fast, we can call it death or whatever. But it is detectable only for extremely little amount of time. By ‘god particle’ I was just using its complete name…nothing else.

Yes but I haven’t yet realized the so called glimpse of nirvana but I could feel the vibrations over my body and based on that me and anyone(who did study about this technique and did meditation under guidance) would be able to know that what can happen if we progress and sir you can check it for yourself right now wherever you are …this is not any supernatural claim but simple truth which can be experienced by anyone here and now(infact this is the way which frees us from suffering)! Obviously it can not happen overnight as efforts and diligence is required to experience all that just as everything. I did 10 days Vipassana course by S. N. Goenka at Igatpuri. You can search for that if you want. Scientific evidence for this can only be experienced by sitting and closing eyes and trust me anyone can see it for himself but it requires efforts, for atleast regular 3-4-5 days depending upon the capacity of every person. Capacity differs …I hope you agree here!

Medical science is exploring the minds of people that have had head injuries and wake to find themselves with different spoken language and character ? There have been people that have had heart transplants that know the character of the donor in their own memory there are twins that are on the otherside of the world and experience the pain of the other with science trying to explain these qualities to others so why is everything else not a possibility to anyone or any thing because people dont express it enough yet because of criticism in the facts or fictions being accused of deciet to another as lies of curruption to forfiet on attention seeking mental states ? What you mind is not open to will be no value to you but others that open minded as the buddha expressed can become clear of this in enlightenment :pray:t2: Everybody has different views of everyone and everything thats what makes us as a superior individual on your own path to your lifetimes in general none of us are built for the same experience otherwise the world would never change may your progression to life and the living be a benefit to all living conditions possible in possibilities yet unknow to us all :pray:t2::microbe:everything matters in unfortunate events to caperbilities for us to learn by not just in a book written by one or another in all experiences concerned …

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It’s like trying to convince someone who is red-green colour blind, that “red” is actually a “thing” (for other humans, but not most mammals). It takes some time for the overwhelming evidence to break through the misperception that keeps telling them that “red” isn’t a thing. If even colours (and shapes) aren’t something that everyone can agree on what hope for the (correct) doctrine of rebirth? It’s a shame because it closes off many valuable teachings for those who don’t make the leap.

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How thoroughly were these claims examined for the truth?

People who believe in these things always seem to think the evidence is in their own favor. Take NDE’s for example. I’ve heard numerous people claim that while undergoing surgery, they were able to see and hear exactly what the doctor was saying, etc… but every single time these claims are investigated by science, they turn out false. There are often video recordings of surgery which contradict the claims of the NDE patient.

I used to believe in past-life regression, because it seemed legitimate and scientific-ish. How are people going to lie under hypnosis about a past life?.. well… they kinda do:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Past_life_regression#Studies

Studies suggest that past lives are likely false memories, implanted through the susceptibility of the hypnotic method. A 1976 study found that 40% of hypnotizable subjects described new identities and used different names when given a suggestion to regress past their birth.[5] In the 1990s, a series of experiments undertaken by Nicholas Spanos examined the nature of past life memories. Descriptions of alleged past lives were found to be extremely elaborate, with vivid, detailed descriptions. This, however, is not indicative of the validity of this therapeutic method. Subjects who reported memories of past lives exhibited high hypnotizability, and patients demonstrated that the expectations conveyed by the experimenter were most important in determining the characteristics of the reported memories. The degree to which the memories were considered credible by the experimental subjects was correlated most significantly to the subjects’ beliefs about reincarnation and their expectation to remember a past life rather than hypnotizability. Spanos’ research leads him to the conclusion that past lives are not memories, but actually social constructions based on patients acting “as if” they were someone else, but with significant flaws that would not be expected of actual memories. To create these memories, Spanos’ subjects drew upon the expectations established by authority figures and information outside of the experiment such as television, novels, life experiences and their own desires.[5] In sum, it is therefore suggested that past lives are likely false memories, implanted through the susceptibility of the hypnotic method.

I’m far from closed-minded if that is what you are implying. I investigate the evidence, but find it lacking. When scientists investigate these claims, they find discrepancies and false claims:

https://www.livescience.com/7737-reality-reincarnation.html

The most celebrated case of a person claiming to have lived a past life is that of Bridey Murphy. Bridey was a 19th century Irishwoman that Colorado woman Virginia Tighe claimed to have been in a previous life.
(…)
At first glance, Tighe’s story seemed very compelling. She had never been to Ireland and presumably could not have known many of the details she remembered except by having lived them a century earlier.
(…)
The story of Bridey Murphy began to collapse when investigative journalists went to Ireland to verify her story.

While a few general statements were proven true, the researchers found virtually no evidence for the vast majority of Tighe’s “memories.” There were no records of a Bridey Murphy who had been born or died on those dates; the people Tighe said she encountered as Bridey Murphy never existed, including her husband. And so on.

It seems that Bernstein and his publishers, in their rush to exploit the case for fame and profit, had neglected to check Bridey Murphy’s account against the historical facts. It was later revealed that as a young child Tighe had spent time with an Irish immigrant neighbor (not coincidentally named Bridie Murphy), from whom she likely picked up a few details about Ireland, along with an exposure to an Irish accent.

Bhante :anjal:

I think that this would be a useful addition, although I’m not really bright enough to understand (what I’ve managed to read of) your writings on physics fully.

You may come up against the “extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence” argument.

I think that this abstract has a nice quote on that:

Hume precisely defined an extraordinary claim as one that is directly contradicted by a massive amount of existing evidence. For a claim to qualify as extraordinary there must exist overwhelming empirical data of the exact antithesis. Extraordinary evidence is not a separate category or type of evidence–it is an extraordinarily large number of observations. Claims that are merely novel or those which violate human consensus are not properly characterized as extraordinary.

I like this quote from Bhante Sujato’s - A Swift Pair of Messengers.

Views of ‘self’ in the past and future are classified by Buddhism as ‘annihilationism’ and ‘eternalism’. Each of these classes of views encompasses many variations. But the most familiar form of annihilationism is the belief that this physical realm is all there is, and after death there is no other life. Eternalism typically postulates an everlasting soul that survives death and lives forever in a blissful—or painful—state. According to the Buddha, these are extreme views, neither of which does justice to the complexity and nuance of reality as we experience it.

Never in our life do we actually experience a moment of consciousness that actually ends, with nothing coming after. Since this is simply not part of our experience, how can we insist that this is what happens after death? Similarly, never do we experience a state of permanence or eternity, nor can we even imagine what such a state might be. Both of these views fail the simple test of Buddhist empiricism: can they be reasonably inferred from actual experience?

Life involves both change and continuity, both unity and diversity. Buddhist philosophy accepts both of these aspects, and insists that they cannot be taken as absolutes.

Viewed in this way, the extraordinary claim is that the stream of consciousness ends at death.

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I wasn’t addressing you at all.

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There are people that have never been under hypnosis that have no knowledge or background in these states but you seen to claim they do which is bizzare to me many centuries nothing was informative in this hypnotic situations by history researchers in brazil the amazon to iceland continents with all is very primitive people have claimed their experiences for centuries religious and non religious communities to justify these cases are conclusive to all verbally in concern so it all depends if scepticism or compassion in all aspects are formation in your reality in speaking not all are a lunatic in these conclusions of matters scepticism is the way we learn about all things possible as the buddha has stated his claims for others to read :pray:t2:

Hence I assume the the mind has more abilities than what humans claim it can achieve n cannot do as to my conclusion we are are all in collective matter states :pray:t2:Nothing on this planet is reserved to not just one but to all that believe more than what it is …collective matters do excist with all possibilities and people should not deny it it keeps you breathing it keeps all living … with successive abilities in achievements science live on imaginary minds and inventory illusions to become the best conclusion it can be in learning our livelihood to cures in medicine and living and history background to why retain minds with scepticism when it can open up more to the world than what it is ? As I claimed before the buddha was a genius before his time n here today in our lifetime timeframe we can reconcile this in matters of understandings without any neglects on his purpose with open minds :pray:t2:

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That’s another issue, should I explain the physics to be like any other popular physics books we find in the market? If so, the book would be way, way thicker. And people generally don’t read thick books. I already think of splitting it into 4 volumes. Hopefully the individual volumes wouldn’t be so thick as well.