SuttaCentral
Sorry, MN140 is pretty direct and literal about this as is AN4.23.
You appear to claim figurative language when a sutta doesn’t support your point and literal language when it does.
The point is, both are true: parinibbāna can refer to the ending of the kilesas while alive and the ending of the aggregates/sesnses at death.
“Coolness” can refer to the peace the extinguishment of the defilements while alive and to the extinguishment of everything else at death.
Yes, i believe the Buddha has seen that the mere fact of cognition, of processing sense info, any kind of sense contact, so also the nice ones, are a break with the perfect coolness of the nature of mind. It represents a certain affliction, like a cow without skin. When cognition ceases, in this life or after death, all becomes cool. But this is not a sense experience nor a feeling or perception.
Like Sariputta said…one perception came and another vanished in me. That in me, that refers to coolness. It is more like our ground. So while we live we will experience formations arising and vanishing in me. But enlightend and at death that formations part ceases totally.
I’ve admitted the adjective is used in reference to the dissolution of the body in MN 140 so I’m not sure what disagreement you have? AN 10.29 does not appear to use this adjective to mean the dissolution of the body. I don’t see how these are in tension. I’ve amended my previous response to hopefully make it very clear that I don’t dispute that sometimes sīti is used to describe the cooling of the physical body following physical death.
Can you please point out where I’ve said the literal interpretation of any sutta is correct? I don’t think I’ve ever said any sutta should be understood literally? I ask because “literal” and “literally” are not adjectives that I use frequently. Moreover, I purposefully try not to use them. If I’ve used them to describe a sutta most likely I was in error.
What “me”?
Perceptions as selfless processes arose and ceased, like all conditional experiences.
No, i only saw that you cannot imagine and do not believe an enlightend one has still me and mine making. The Buddha i see in the sutta’s still has. There are many things that show this.
Thanks.
I used “literal” and “figurative” regarding what you expressed:
I don’t think any of the suttas should be described as literal in meaning. However, I don’t contend that in MN 140 ‘cool’ refers as an adjective to something other than the physical body after physical death. In AN 10.29 it does not so appear. Is it this you disagree with?
It is an interesting contention and appears in conflict to my mind with the Teacher’s own testament of his realizations. If you wish to document and support this contention I think it should be done in another thread. Thank you.
If you do not rely on some theory of mind you must admit that when you meditate and thoughts cease, restlessness ceases, emotions cease, thinking ceases, plans, intentions, tendencies, formations… that you do not cease. It just does not happen.
it is impossible to do any claim of attainment or realisation without a sense of me and mine.
We might be on the same page.
Regarding AN10.29, “This is the best of those who advocate extinguishment in this very life, that is, liberation by not grasping after truly understanding the origin, ending, gratification, drawback, and escape of the six fields of contact.”, may be referring to the frequent “depiction” of nibbāna as the ending of the greed, anger, and ignorance – as the line indicates – while alive.
Or, it can be pointing to the realization and knowledge in this very life, that “It’s when a mendicant is a perfected one, with defilements ended, who has completed the spiritual journey, done what had to be done, laid down the burden, achieved their own true goal, utterly ended the fetters of rebirth, and is rightly freed through enlightenment.” Iti44
Knowing the ending of rebirth one knows final extinguishment as the cessation of all that.
Conditions do not cease in what you’ve described.
Unless you’re speaking about saññāvedayitanirodha in which all consciousness and hence all experiences temporarily cease. But that state is attained only by once-returners and arahants.
You keep holding on to a theoretical approach Jasudho. But just answer for once a questions without grasping to theory…do you experience that you cease while formations cease?
And you know this how?
I only ask…
Why do you not just answer this question without relying on any theory?
I’ve been meditating quite a lot on AN 4.23 and DN 16 and the descriptions of final extinguishment without remainder and what these might be referencing and come to a new hypothesis.
As I’ve stated, I believe that Shakyamuni achieved final extinguishment without remainder the very same night as his supreme awakening. He laid down the burden totally and completely on that very night.
DN 16 is hard to understand with this conception, as it describes the final extinguishment without remainder as temporally coincidental with the physical death of the physical body. How is it possible that final extinguishment happens twice? Could it be that the term is used differently in different places? I’m not sure, but I have a new hypothesis.
Underneath the Bodhi tree Shakyamuni did achieve final extinguishment without remainder and laid down the burden never to take it up again. No longer appropriating the grasping aggregates as “I” nor “mine” dukkha was finally eliminated right there.
It would appear that dukkha was also eliminated with the physical death of the previously appropriated body of Gotama. But how can this dukkha be distinguished from the dukkha that was finally extinguished the night of Shakyamuni’s awakening? Here it is:
Then Venerable Ānanda entered a building, and stood there leaning against the door-jamb and crying, “Oh! I’m still only a trainee with work left to do; and my Teacher is about to become fully extinguished, he who is so kind to me!”
Then the Buddha said to the mendicants, “Mendicants, where is Ānanda?”
“Sir, Ānanda has entered a dwelling, and stands there leaning against the door-jamb and crying: ‘Oh! I’m still only a trainee with work left to do; and my Teacher is about to become fully extinguished, he who is so kind to me!’”
So the Buddha addressed one of the monks, “Please, monk, in my name tell Ānanda that the teacher summons him.”
“Yes, sir,” that monk replied. He went to Ānanda and said to him, “Reverend Ānanda, the teacher summons you.”
“Yes, reverend,” Ānanda replied. He went to the Buddha, bowed, and sat down to one side. The Buddha said to him:
“Enough, Ānanda! Do not grieve, do not lament. Did I not prepare for this when I explained that we must be parted and separated from all we hold dear and beloved? How could it possibly be so that what is born, created, conditioned, and liable to wear out should not wear out, even the Realized One’s body? For a long time, Ānanda, you’ve treated the Realized One with deeds of body, speech, and mind that are loving, beneficial, pleasant, undivided, and limitless. You have done good deeds, Ānanda. Devote yourself to meditation, and you will soon be free of defilements.”
DN 16
Ananda - still a trainee - and many others lamented and appropriated the five aggregates on the Teacher’s behalf. This is the dukkha which ended with the final extinguishment of the Teacher upon the physical death of the body of Gotama and the subsequent dissolution of the aggregates.
“There are, Ānanda, deities—both in the sky and on the earth—who are percipient of the earth. With hair disheveled and arms raised, they fall down like their feet were chopped off, rolling back and forth, lamenting: Read chinnaṁpādaṁ viya papatanti.‘Too soon the Blessed One will become fully extinguished! Too soon the Holy One will become fully extinguished! Too soon the Eye of the World will vanish!’
DN 16
The Teacher hints at this in other places where he says after this final extinguishment he cannot be located by god’s or any other sentient beings. Just this is the dukkha that ceases at the final extinguishment coincidental with the physical death of the body that other’s appropriate on behalf of an awakened one.
Hi,
We don’t discuss our practices on this forum.
But we can cite suttas that support our points and current understanding.
You appear to label this as just “relying on theory.”
Or, we can express our beliefs without seeking some validation from what the Buddha taught in the Nikāyas.
All best
This appears to confirm what you previously denied, that the aggregates/senses are dukkha, and still present for an arahant until final death.
Or, if by this you meant that dukkha ceases that other’s appropriated, then that dukkha in fact did not cease – since other’s appropriated it.
Or perhaps I’ve misunderstood your point.
I still maintain that it is the grasping aggregates that are dukkha and not the mere aggregates. The point is that the grasping from the point of view of Shakyamuni ended completely and finally underneath the Bodhi tree. Unfortunately, this did not prevent others from grasping at the aggregates like Gotama’s body and craving continued existence for it in an impossible way. This leads directly to suffering for those who so appropriated - Ananda and so on - which finally ceased with the death and breakup of the body and dissolution of those mere aggregates.
Maybe it is just me, but I think we’re starting to make a habit of this 