PlantUML dependency diagram for - well - dependent origination

[sjoerdvanleent]

I attempted to create a dependency diagram using PlantUML during Uposatha. It appeared that a dependency diagram is a good fit dependent origination, and was fun to create.

Although it is definetely a work in progress, the source code is found in:

santidhammo/dependent-origination-plantuml: Work In Progress to understand Dependent Origination, possibly taking multiple lifetimes (github.com)

I did create a workflow, I believe the result is accessible through the Actions menu

In any case, feel free to use (given the license terms - which I had to unfortunately apply)

The output for the first attempt is:

And can be found at: https://github.com/santidhammo/dependent-origination-plantuml/releases/download/v0.0.1/dependent-origination.png

Wishing you happy, well, peaceful, secure and free
Sjoerd

[christie]

Well done! I love your use of conditionals and looping.

I prefer to use mermaid, even though it has a lot less features, mainly because it is easy to embed in many places, including this forum

---
title: Pratītyasamutpāda
---
stateDiagram-v2
direction LR
  Avijjā --> Saṅkhāra
  Saṅkhāra -->  Viññāṇa
  Viññāṇa  --> Nāmarūpa
  Nāmarūpa --> Saḷāyatana
  Saḷāyatana --> Phassa
  Phassa --> Vedanā
  Vedanā --> Taṇhā
  Taṇhā --> Upādāna
  Upādāna --> Bhava
  Bhava --> Jāti
  Jāti --> Jarāmaraṇa
  Jarāmaraṇa --> Avijjā

[mikenz66]

Hi Sjoerd,

@sjoerdvanleent

The first output is found at:

I’ve tried viewing this post in both Chrome and Firefox, but I can’t see any sign of any output.

Mike

[sjoerdvanleent]

@mikenz66

I’ve tried viewing this post in both Chrome and Firefox, but I can’t see any sign of any output.

My mistake, I wanted to provide a link to an output, but didn’t publish it yet.

[sjoerdvanleent]

I corrected a mistake in the diagram, one of the “āma” (true) should be “na” (false) instead

The new diagram is:

I did explicitely not use direct arrows, as that would convey a certain “state”, and create an illusion that death (or Dukkha for that matter), would give rise to Avijjā, which is not the case at all.

I am trying to model out the situation of Dukkha being an end-station in the chain of dependent origination in this diagram. Any suggestions would be welcome.

May you be well, happy,secure, peaceful and free

[christie]

@sjoerdvanleent

I am trying to model out the situation of Dukkha being an end-station in the chain of dependent origination in this diagram. Any suggestions would be welcome.

My suggestion is that dukkha as a state is not at the same level as the other factors in the DO chain, but in effect is a meta-state.

I would suggest something like this:

---
title: Pratītyasamutpāda
---
stateDiagram-v2
  state dukkha {
    direction LR
[*] --> Avijjā
  Avijjā --> Saṅkhāra
  Saṅkhāra -->  Viññāṇa
  Viññāṇa  --> Nāmarūpa
  Nāmarūpa --> Saḷāyatana
  Saḷāyatana --> Phassa
  Phassa --> Vedanā
  Vedanā --> Taṇhā
  Taṇhā --> Upādāna
  Upādāna --> Bhava
  Bhava --> Jāti
  Jāti --> Jarāmaraṇa
  Jarāmaraṇa --> Avijjā
}
dukkha --> nibbāna
nibbāna -->  [*] 

[sjoerdvanleent]

@christie

My suggestion is that dukkha as a state is not at the same level as the other factors in the DO chain, but in effect is a meta-state.

Problem here is for as far as I am aware, that old age and death are not a dependency for Unknowing/Ignorance (as explained by Ajahn Brahmali, Bhante Sujato and Bhikkhu Sunyo in the workshops of Dependent Origination).

Also, I am not sure whether for example, Dukkha is always a result of old age and death, that would make it causality. For as far as I understand, Dukkha is dependent on old age and death, not caused by old age and death.

In any case, muddling on in Saṃsara, here is the result for now using PlantUML:

[christie]

@sjoerdvanleent

Also, I am not sure whether for example, Dukkha is always a result of old age and death, that would make it causality. For as far as I understand, Dukkha is dependent on old age and death, not caused by old age and death.

Again, I feel like we are mixing different types of states. Ignorance is a mental state, old age and death is a physical state.

I don’t read DO as a dependency diagram (despite me drawing it in Mermaid as a state diagram) but as “one thing inevitably leads to another”.

So Upādāna leads to existence (in other words, our craving leads to us becoming, or continuation of existence, which then inevitably leads to birth, old age, death etc. If we did not have craving, we would be free from the cycle of existence.

[sjoerdvanleent]

@christie

o Upādāna leads to existence (in other words, our craving leads to us becoming, or continuation of existence, which then inevitably leads to birth, old age, death etc. If we did not have craving, we would be free from the cycle of existence.

Certainly don’t disagree that without craving (which is dependent on ignorance), we would be free from the cycle of existence. Only notion I made is that old age and death does not form a dependency of ignorance (so the back-arrow was what I was pointing at )

In any case, I finally found a way to consider Dukkha as a result in my diagram, and I removed unnecessary complexity.

By the way, the while loop of Avijjā could be understood as Saṃsara, maybe should annotate that.

[christie]

@sjoerdvanleent

Certainly don’t disagree that without craving (which is dependent on ignorance), we would be free from the cycle of existence. Only notion I made is that old age and death does not form a dependency of ignorance (so the back-arrow was what I was pointing at )

Understand

Again, I use the “inevitably leads to” to interpret it as “old age and death” inevitably leads to “ignorance”, as rebirth effectively is starting again, so whatever we have learnt will be forgotten, ie. “ignorance.” Of course, this is playing with words, but I think there is a core essence in there that feels true.

BTW, have you thought of modelling DO as a sequence diagram, with the factors playing the role of actors? You’ll have to think through what is the “message” that is being passed across the actors. You may find the exercise insightful.