Please Stop!

This is very true. True legitimacy IMO will not come in the near future. Let’s say that, in the unlikely event, all those monks who oppose Bhikkhuni ordination, one day accept it, then it will go on record as something very monumental. But it will still be recalled say in 1000 years as something which was done arbitrarily by the monk community and as something not directly done by the Buddha. My point is that this restoring the lineage idea, however well it is done, will be less than normal.
Fortunately though, the Dhamma is still available in its pristine purity. What one needs to do is practice it wholeheartedly. After all layman, laywoman, monk and nun are all conventions. Out of all those robed and ordained monks who oppose Bhikkhuni ordination, how many follow the Dhamma in its true form let alone achieving any stage such as Satapanna.?. The answer is hardly any. In fact the mere reason why they oppose such recognition is their own lack of Dhamma knowledge. The Buddha has never said that if lineage gets broken sometime in the future then no women can practice his teaching as a Bhikkhuni from that point onward.
I think as the Buddha himself said that ignorance is the cause of Dukkha, this is also a drama the so called ordained monks exhibit out of ignorance. Therefore, everyone in spite of their gender should endeavor to practice Dhamma without getting bogged down in finding perfection in things which are only superficial.
Having said that, I wholeheartedly support a revival of Bhikkhuni ordination and pray that all obstacles in that path be cleared in the nearest possible future.
With Metta

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Would we have the same discussion the other way round? If for some weird historical reason the male lineage was cut in one sect, relying only on bhikkhunis, and then bhikkhus wanted to re-establish themselves - would people really ask if that would be ‘legitimate’?

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Dear Venerable

As a lay Buddhist I felt deeply about the situation you reveal in this piece. As a Western Buddhist, and like so many others at this otherwise exciting time for Buddhism’s growth in the West, I have thought about the role of women generally in 21st-century Buddhism and wondered about the role (or is it plight?) of nuns. Even the terms “role” and “place” seem limiting insofar as it cannot be a situation where the role and place of lay and ordained women is determined by a male-dominated Sangha alone. As a suggestion (and my apologies if such measures have already been undertaken) perhaps there needs to be a series of Councils convened by a combination of lay and ordained Buddhists of equal gender, across the traditions, with sufficient power to recommend changes. I know from experience across more than 20 years involvement with a number of Buddhist organisations in Australia that cultural issues also play a part which can confound newcomers at first and I am sufficiently aware of sensibilities to know that those issues need to be approached with compassion and loving-kindness, but change must take place. I applaud your heartfelt comments Venerable and I am gladdened to feel that I am part, as a layperson, of a Dhamma that is dynamic enough to allow its own growth.

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Oh I am sure they would. People love this stuff, arguing and proving points. :slight_smile: Besides, matriarchy is by no means more benign than patriarchy.

Ironically enough, the whole story of West trying to enforce its “undoubtedly correct way of doing things” onto other parts of the worlds and cultures seems to be a repeat of what happened in the past, where the West was performing the same thing, but with the Cross and trade ships (today it’s gender/equality/democracy questions and economic models). It just can’t get without making the whole world work its way, can it? :wink:

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Sorry, I don’t think they would in Asia. Anyway, it’s hypothetical and a matter of opinion.

Haha, yes, “the West knows the Best”. But by no means it’s that simple. The actual social revolution in India happened before the Buddha - even if some Buddhist scholars think that the Buddha was the big social reformer. In the Upanisads we already have a very different position of women (and the ksatriya) in spirituality, being teachers themselves, pursuing the union with atman/brahman on equal footing as men.

Also the Niganthas/Jains (slightly older than Buddhism) have a more distinct tradition of women, both lay and monastic. Additionally we have reports of 3rd century BC Greek historians who report that in some areas girls and women were equally spiritually educated as men.

Lastly the comparative textual work of B. Analayo shows how there was more gender equality in older layers of the texts.

So yes, the Western discourse has a strong emphasis on topics like gender equality and democracy. But it is able to connect to social aspects of spiritual revolutions of the Indian past that were later covered again by social conservatist movements.

The question is justified - is the Sangha a spiritual institution or a social one? As much as I wished it was a spiritual one, it’s (in total) very much a social institution with a social purpose. Which is a shame for those individuals looking for the ideal environment to dedicate themselves totally to spiritual development.

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The agreement was with a 4 fold sangha. Thank for for provoking some clarity with this lay life.

Why when there is talk of gender, is it often thought to be talk by about for women?
Men having gender privileges cling to maleness as if their reality depends on it, and perhaps it does.

But this is not what Buddha Dhamma Sangha teaches.

In squelching the 4 fold sangha, men chain themselves to their own detriment. Not only do they block each other, mislead each other, misteach each other, they try to put unceasing obstruction in the path of many. But these obstacles which rise will cease.

So. I guess I must leave you to your selves.

Metta. Looking forward to liberation.

edit: here is a bank of qualifiers. Take “some” or “” sometimes" as it is, or as you see it; after all, what could happen if you are wrong? :slight_smile: Lay, resolving own practice, as each does.

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Dharmacorps, I very much agree.

I think that stronger support in monastic development and Dhamma care for women renunciates and, particularly for those on the still emerging Bhikkhuni Sangha path, would keep more good practitioners in robes. Ardent practice is a personal thing that is what brings us to the goal, but as unenlightened monastics that ardent practice needs to be given wise guidance, mirrors to reflect the practice and, day-to-day care. Yes, we make of ourselves an island. But to not drown on the way, we need care to come from the community. The support must be both from within the monastic Sangha and within the wider Buddhist community.

In this particular reply, except for the noting of the need for requisites, I am highlighting what could be developed within the Sangha, amongst the Bhikkhunis for their Sangha care and growth. I state it here to own that there is internal work amongst the monastics to be done. I think we are aware of this and various monasteries and alliances and, yes, even Facebook groups, are having some discussion on this. I don’t think the Sangha is complacent with what has been achieved, just tired. It is aware that more can be done. Finding the balance and inter-relationship of surviving as a monastic or monastery on the basic requisite level, nurturing one’s spiritual growth and the growth of those directly in front of one, and developing the social, physical and technical infrastructure to grow the monastic container, is not an easy practice. It will take time.

Having,

  1. a primary teacher and at least one strong mentor other than the teacher,
  2. an established community where the container of monastic life isn’t shaky in its support structure both for requisites and monastic development, and
  3. monastic peers who are learning and practicing at roughly the same stage of ordination and with similar monastic disciplines,

are three things I think would help us not lose so many good monastics with hearts directed to liberation and service.

I, personally, am very grateful to have senior monastics over ten years as Bhikkhunis within my residential community and also those very kindly willing to mentor my monastic development through email and Voice-Over-IP. I wouldn’t have made it to Bhikkhuni ordination without that care. I very much missed not having direct monastic siblings who were in the same environment and who could be friends in the journey, but found blessing in touching paths with visiting monastics, brief conversations at wider Sangha events and occasional Facebook chats or emails with other Samaneris.

I also am benefiting from the progress with the creation of a places for monastic training and development. Building this structure of care as part of the monastic container is what we are in the early days of doing for Bhikkhunis and those who aspire to become Bhikkhunis. And yes, I also realize not all Bhihhkus get this container and think it is part of their disrobal rate as well.

The Buddha equated leaving the robes with death in several places in the Vinaya. (For clarity - I mean the death of the monastic life form, not of the person.) All beings subsist on nutriment and nourishing monastics matters, or like a small child, they will fail to thrive and will die.

It is good to have this forum and I hope here and in the, hopefully, growing means for monastics to communicate and support one another, we will see over time, not only the development of the support system, but also the enlightened results.

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This sounds like a wonderful start and I for one would be willing to help. I was part of the lay side of an effort many years ago to help integrate nuns into a monastic order, and – despite the best intentions – it ended up a muddle after years of butting (bald) heads and the nuns went elsewhere to support themselves. Is Plum Village a co-ed success because of Thay or because of the longer run of nuns in Mahayana? The ongoing strictures of traditional Theravadan views seem endlessly complicating.

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Hi Vimala,
Your story is heart breaking…thank you for courage to share it. I’ve had no idea how difficult is for ordained women have same practice privileges as ordained men. It feels infuriating considering women are the ones who cook clean and make it possible for monks to practice. I bet if women will stop bringing food to monasteries for one week monks attitudes toward nuns will change drastically and quickly.
Your determination and commitment to practice is so deep and impressive monks should feel privileged to be in your presence. Whatever you will decide continue with your practice or not I would like you to know that your honesty made deep impact on me.
I wonder how can I help? I am not rich but I can make small donations. What do you think is best way to help you and other nuns?
With metta, Alona.

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I am coming late to this, but am very happy to offer a heartfelt “Sadhu, sadhu, sadhu!” to you, Ayya, for this wonderful essay and its plea for respect and kindness.
Exactly.
It could not be said better.

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Been a while since I said something here, and i’m going to continue that noble silence, and just share a dhamma talk from one of my favorite teachers (listning to it right now), and i don’t even care to mention what kind of being this is, because wisdom has no distinctions to me

So the op is “Please Stop”, and I just add silently in my mind: I love to give you something, but what would help?

Started this little gem right now, and Venerable Sundara really can put a big silly smile on my face, so maybe there are some good stand up comedians out in the real world, but I do prefer our sit down comedians a lot more :yum:

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I agree with you here.

For a few years, that was what I did and I enjoyed myself immensely as I had the freedom to keep precepts while listening to my teachers’ dhamma teachings on the ‘Laptop Temple’.

I empathise with @Vimala regarding having no teachers to live with. I didn’t get ordained because I was living in Thailand and my teacher was in Perth, and most important of all, my teacher was a Bhikkhu, so I couldn’t live with him.

So, yes, my solution was to do what @Gabriel suggested. I’m not saying that this is the best solution, but it is for me.

My post here is not to negate all the difficulties nuns face that are raised here. My post is a simple response to @Gabriel, based on my personal experience and decision.

Anumodana to you all brave women who are trying to practice the dhamma!

Dheerayupa

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DN.16/(3) Mahāparinibbānasuttaṃ

Evaṃ kho, ānanda, bhikkhu attadīpo viharati attasaraṇo anaññasaraṇo, dhammadīpo dhammasaraṇo anaññasaraṇo

Therefore, Ānanda, live with yourself as an island, yourself as a refuge, with no other refuge, with the Teaching as an island, the Teaching as a refuge, with no other refuge.

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And this means to me that one doesn’t have to remove anybody or have special conditions to reach this goal. It makes no difference what gender and so on, it depends on one’s own attitude and diligence.

:slight_smile:

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Yes, of course.
And.
There is paramattha and there is puññati.
You can’t live in absolute reality.
It doesn’t pay rent, or the doctor, or supply the body with nutriment.
And with a very few exceptions, situations for female monastics do not allow much if any support for these and whatever else one needs to keep it together.
Which as I understood it, was the point of Ayya’s OP.

It is complicated.
And a patchwork of many colors.
We can argue until we die about who is the ‘real renunciate,’ and it’s a pathetic discussion.

But the support? Practical, worldly support, rather than metta wishes and sadhus: that is what is needed.

For ALL of us. In fact, it is those who have chosen not to take up the bhikkhuni form (for whatever reason, and there are some good ones) who are often least supported, in spite of in some cases having taken up monastic life and the practice decades before.

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@Vimala, sounds tough! I extend my sympathies!

I don’t mean this in a condescending way, but rather in an inspiring way given the situation: maybe a solution is to find an inspiring nun!

One of my friends made a bhikkhuni nunnery in Thailand. The nuns there must be feel so lucky :slight_smile: And another made a nunnery for nuns of the border reagions, in India.

These are both very inspiring people, and I expect that the nuns there in both places will do far better than monks at any average monastery!

Even getting together as a group (if there are many nuns living by themselves around) without a particularly advanced teacher, could be great. To inspire each other. To invite good teachers to come to teach, whether they be male or female. To live an inspiring lifestyle, supporting each other in that.

I know finance is a huge issue, and as you said, hard to get funds for nuns! Maybe one solution could even be based on a more Christian model - making a business together to earn a living. I have always liked that idea. For example, thogh it might be against the vinaya, I admired monasteries in China which grew tea, and/or vegetables. And I heard of Christian nuns in the US making a cannabis company. They seemed really happy :slight_smile: And the Desert Fathers way back, didn;t they make baskets and sell them at market to support their hermit lifestyles? I even have some beer in my cupboard made by Trappist monks :slight_smile:

I would seem very sad for half of the population to feel lost because of not having access to teachings from the other half. I would expect that women could make a far better system, and better teachers, than men!

I hope this doesn’t come across badly. Just trying to see a positive way forward.

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Reluctantly, I agree- it becomes an obsession, a defilement- better to focus on more peaceful past-times. Though at the same time one must work towards improving, educating and working on incorrect and outdated outlooks of others. Misogyny will probably be around for another 500 years and we have only one lifetime to live as a monk or nun. I think everything else should be secondary. Nobody will ever thank you for giving advice to let go of the prized fight, unfortunately.

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One is a free temporary collection of aggregates in the same sort of decaying sacks of flesh as is every one else. Effort has effect. The Four Noble Truths and their proclamation had, have, will have effect. May all beings be happy, and ultimately liberated.

Realizing that i always have been talking mostly to myself, I’ve looked for something that could be of real help and this touching and deep teaching by a sister was to me very helpful , and one can hope that others find some value in it … :slight_smile:

THE BOOK THAT YOU are now going to read is the story of the Dhamma practice of a female
Buddhist from Norway. She started to practise after having experienced extreme suffering in
her life. She did not give up, but fought with patience, energy and endurance. With firm
resolution she investigated thoroughly, using the full force of vigilance in order to find the
cause of this suffering, until the heart finally found the Buddha Truth in all phenomena. This
resulted in freedom from the power of Suffering. It gave her energy to endure, to live at ease
and be free from danger in the midst of “the Stream of the World”, which is full of suffering.
This happened before she had learned of the Buddhist Religion.

issues_through _the_moss-mali_bagoie-version_1.0.pdf (520.9 KB)

I love especially her sweet self made meditation, pictured with this image

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In many instances, I think open-hearted listening is what can be most helpful.

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