Plucking the fruits of meditation

Dear dhamma friends and venerables

Recently I saw on Instagram a man doing a challenge of meditating 2 consecutive hours. He has been upholding this practice for a while now and seems to have gain some experience in observing his thoughts. This brought me to a question.

How come other general people (not buddhist) and even members of another faith meditate so dedicated and strive very hard by keeping a rigorous meditation schedule, yet they dont even seem close to a realization like we know of in the sutras?

The same could apply for buddhist monastics, (and this is not meant in any offensive way.) There are some monastics who work very hard and meditate hours on end. Whether sitting, laying down or walking. Yet even they might not even be close to an arhat.

If those asectics work so hard and yet seem to progress less then they would like, what about us lay people :laughing:

So why is it that for some realization comes quick but that most of us will barley even reach solid one pointed concentration in this life time?

Im curious on your opinion and do include sutra refrences if there are any about this topic.

With kind regards!

Simply put, people’s capabilities vary. Why do some people understand things quickly and others slowly or not at all? It basically comes down to accumulated merit/perfections and rightly directed effort.

Buddhahood and arahantship are literally the highest possible achievements a being can aspire to. Stream-entry is better than rulership over the entire world (Dhp 178), and it would be worth it to be stabbed by 300 spears a day for a hundred years straight to attain it (SN 56.35)—even still they need up to 7 whole lifetimes to develop before attaining arahantship. These are truly noble goals, worthy of respect. So it’s no wonder that many people do not attain in a single life. And let’s be honest: a lot of people want the benefits of enlightenment without having to give up their attachments.

When he had spoken, Moggallāna the Accountant said to the Buddha, “When his disciples are instructed and advised like this by the worthy Gotama, do all of them achieve the ultimate goal, extinguishment, or do some of them fail?”

“Some succeed, while others fail.”

“What is the cause, worthy Gotama, what is the reason why, though extinguishment is present, the path leading to extinguishment is present, and the worthy Gotama is present to encourage them, still some succeed while others fail?”

“Well then, brahmin, I’ll ask you about this in return, and you can answer as you like. What do you think, brahmin? Are you skilled in the road to Rājagaha?”

“Yes, I am.”

“What do you think, brahmin? Suppose a person was to come along who wanted to go to Rājagaha. He’d approach you and say: ‘Sir, I wish to go to Rājagaha. Please point out the road to Rājagaha.’ You’d say to them: ‘Here, worthy man, this road goes to Rājagaha. Go along it for an hour, and you’ll see a certain village. Go along an hour further, and you’ll see a certain town. Go along an hour further and you’ll see Rājagaha with its delightful parks, woods, meadows, and lotus ponds.’ Instructed like this by you, they might still take the wrong road, heading west. But a second person might come with the same question and receive the same instructions. Instructed by you, they might safely arrive at Rājagaha. What is the cause, brahmin, what is the reason why, though Rājagaha is present, the path leading to Rājagaha is present, and you are there to encourage them, one person takes the wrong path and heads west, while another arrives safely at Rājagaha?”

“What can I do about that, worthy Gotama? I am the one who shows the way.”

“In the same way, though extinguishment is present, the path leading to extinguishment is present, and I am present to encourage them, still some of my disciples, instructed and advised like this, achieve the ultimate goal, extinguishment, while some of them fail. What can I do about that, brahmin? The Realized One is the one who shows the way.”

-MN 107

“Mendicants, a farmer has three urgent duties. What three? A farmer swiftly makes sure the field is well ploughed and tilled. Next they swiftly plant seeds in season. When the time is right, they swiftly irrigate or drain the field. These are the three urgent duties of a farmer. That farmer has no special power or ability to say: ‘Let the crops germinate today! Let them flower tomorrow! Let them ripen the day after!’ But there comes a time when that farmer’s crops germinate, flower, and ripen as the seasons change.

In the same way, a mendicant has three urgent duties. What three? Undertaking the training in the higher ethics, the higher mind, and the higher wisdom. These are the three urgent duties of a mendicant. That mendicant has no special power or ability to say: ‘Let my mind be freed from defilements by not grasping today! Or tomorrow! Or the day after!’ But there comes a time—as that mendicant trains in the higher ethics, the higher mind, and the higher wisdom—that their mind is freed from defilements by not grasping.

So you should train like this: ‘We will have keen enthusiasm for undertaking the training in the higher ethics, the higher mind, and the higher wisdom.’ That’s how you should train.”

-AN 3.92

“Mendicants, when a mendicant is not committed to development, they might wish: ‘If only my mind were freed from the defilements by not grasping!’ Even so, their mind is not freed from defilements by not grasping. Why is that? You should say: ‘It’s because they’re undeveloped.’ Undeveloped in what? The four kinds of mindfulness meditation, the four right efforts, the four bases of psychic power, the five faculties, the five powers, the seven awakening factors, and the noble eightfold path.

Suppose there was a chicken with eight or ten or twelve eggs. But she had not properly sat on them to keep them warm and incubated. Even if that chicken might wish: ‘If only my chicks could break out of the eggshell with their claws and beak and hatch safely!’ Still they can’t break out and hatch safely. Why is that? Because she has not properly sat on them to keep them warm and incubated.

In the same way, when a mendicant is not committed to development, they might wish: ‘If only my mind were freed from the defilements by not grasping!’ Even so, their mind is not freed from defilements by not grasping. Why is that? You should say: ‘It’s because they’re undeveloped.’ Undeveloped in what? The four kinds of mindfulness meditation, the four right efforts, the four bases of psychic power, the five faculties, the five powers, the seven awakening factors, and the noble eightfold path.

When a mendicant is committed to development, they might not wish: ‘If only my mind were freed from the defilements by not grasping!’ Even so, their mind is freed from defilements by not grasping. Why is that? You should say: ‘It’s because they are developed.’ Developed in what? The four kinds of mindfulness meditation, the four right efforts, the four bases of psychic power, the five faculties, the five powers, the seven awakening factors, and the noble eightfold path.

Suppose there was a chicken with eight or ten or twelve eggs. And she properly sat on them to keep them warm and incubated. Even if that chicken doesn’t wish: ‘If only my chicks could break out of the eggshell with their claws and beak and hatch safely!’ Still they can break out and hatch safely. Why is that? Because she properly sat on them to keep them warm and incubated.

In the same way, when a mendicant is committed to development, they might not wish: ‘If only my mind were freed from the defilements by not grasping!’ Even so, their mind is freed from defilements by not grasping. Why is that? You should say: ‘It’s because they are developed.’ Developed in what? The four kinds of mindfulness meditation, the four right efforts, the four bases of psychic power, the five faculties, the five powers, the seven awakening factors, and the noble eightfold path.

Suppose a mason or their apprentice sees the marks of his fingers and thumb on the handle of his adze. They don’t know how much of the handle was worn away today, how much yesterday, and how much previously. They just know what has been worn away. In the same way, when a mendicant is committed to development, they don’t know how much of the defilements were worn away today, how much yesterday, and how much previously. They just know what has been worn away.

Suppose there was a sea-faring ship bound together with ropes. For six months they deteriorated in the water. Then in the cold season it was hauled up on dry land, where the ropes were weathered by wind and sun. When the monsoon clouds soaked it with rain, the ropes would readily collapse and rot away. In the same way, when a mendicant is committed to development their fetters readily collapse and rot away.”

-AN 7.71

In the twenty-five years
since I went forth,
I have not found peace of mind,
even as long as a finger-snap.

Since I couldn’t get my mind unified,
I was racked by desire for pleasures of the senses.
Wailing, with outstretched arms,
I left my dwelling.

Or shall I commit suicide?
What’s the point of living?
For how on earth can one such as me die
after resigning the training?

Then I picked up a razor,
I sat on a cot:
the razor was ready
to slice my vein.

Then the realization
came upon me—
the danger became clear,
and I was firmly disillusioned.

Then my mind was freed—
behold the clear rightness of the teaching!
I’ve attained the three knowledges,
and fulfilled the Buddha’s instructions.

-Thag 6.6

In the twenty-five years
since I went forth,
I have not found peace of mind,
even as long as a finger-snap.

Failing to find peace of heart,
festering with sensual desire,
I cried with flailing arms
as I entered a dwelling.

I approached a nun
in whom I had faith.
She taught me the Dhamma:
the aggregates, sense fields, and elements.

When I heard her teaching,
I retired to a discreet place.
I know my past lives;
my clairvoyance is purified;

I encompass the minds of others;
my clairaudience is purified;
I’ve realized the psychic powers,
and attained the ending of defilements.
I have realized the six kinds of direct knowledge,
and fulfilled the Buddha’s instructions.

-Thig 5.1

3 Likes

The Buddha was clear that to get Samma Samādhi it has to be supported by Samma Sati. And to get Right Mindfulness, it has to be supported by Right Effort. And so on through ethics down to Right View:

Mendicants, relying on the wrong way leads to failure, not success. And how does relying on the wrong way lead to failure, not success?
Wrong view produces wrong purpose. Wrong purpose produces wrong speech. Wrong speech produces wrong action. Wrong action produces wrong livelihood. Wrong livelihood produces wrong effort. Wrong effort produces wrong mindfulness. Wrong mindfulness produces wrong immersion.
~ AN 10.103

There are some ascetics and brahmins who have wrong view, […] wrong immersion. If they lead the spiritual life, they can’t win its fruit
~ MN 126

So, for those whose practice goes nowhere for a long time, it’s most likely due to insufficient Right View, Intention, etc. You can’t just meditate. You need to also cultivate its spiritual foundations: generosity, kindness, ethics, saṃvega, renunciation, etc.

2 Likes

I find the first section of MN8 very thought provoking. The idea that there are many enjoyable meditation states possible (in general, I’m not making any attainment claim), but that one may not necessarily be training for self-effacement. Of course there are worse things one could be doing with their time than practicing ‘blissful and peaceful’ meditations, but ultimately it’s another pleasure that eventually must be given up.

1 Like

The way I look at it is that meditation on its own won’t get you there. It should be a 360 effort. Sitting for 2 hours consecutively strikes me more as an exercise in endurance or something, and simply learning something about observing thoughts doesn’t necessarily mean gaining of insight. I always teach folks that meditation is supported by ethical conduct first. If one wants to be able to settle the mind, they first need to live in a manner that won’t come back to yell at them during meditation. Then, they ought to approach meditation with the same attitude the Buddha did for the rest of his life, after ataining enlightenment: not sitting and searching to fabricate another Buddha, with a mind that doesn’t pursue gains, but that understands how practice and the fruits of practice are not separate. One then needs to spend time reflecting on the meditation, reflecting on themselves, developing wisdom (The Buddha’s eight causes that lead to aquiring and increading wisdom are a great practice guide) and developing the rest of the virtues. This wisdom, in turn, manifests as a naturally arising ethical conduct, which support meditation, and so on, in a circle.

So, I think one can’t sit with the wrong motivation, wrong mental attitude and diregard the context of the meditation, and expect some spectacular progress.

2 Likes

I deeply appreciate the sutta refrences because the buddha basically answered my question on multiple occasions I just didn’t know where to look :sweat_smile:

Perhaps i missed out on an important aspect that indeed meditation alone isn’t the only ultimate teaching. In my head I regarded meditation as the only practice really that would result into insight and that ethics and such are a by product of insights gained by meditation. Because for me meditation is a difficult practice it is like reading a book and genuinely trying to be immersed in the story and picking up the details. Sometimes it goes wel sometimes it doesn’t. A sort of mild ascetic practice because you do really give up everything just to be there for a moment. So it requires the most mental restraint and control.

I will reread the suttas mentioned because I was surprised at how vivid the similes were and how straight forward and understandable the answer was.

Thank you all!

Sadhu, sadhu, sadhu!

1 Like

I can only speak for myself. The reason I keep on is that there isn’t anything better to do, and at the start there was a firm determination to use the rest of my days to find out about the nature of reality, so I keep on practising not as a side hobby but as the eightfold path being life itself.

2 Likes