Polak's Reexamining Jhanas

But the Upakkilesasutta seems to treat them as distinct:

So kho ahaṁ, anuruddhā, savitakkampi savicāraṁ samādhiṁ bhāvesiṁ, avitakkampi vicāramattaṁ samādhiṁ bhāvesiṁ, avitakkampi avicāraṁ samādhiṁ bhāvesiṁ, sappītikampi samādhiṁ bhāvesiṁ, nippītikampi samādhiṁ bhāvesiṁ, sātasahagatampi samādhiṁ bhāvesiṁ, upekkhāsahagatampi samādhiṁ bhāvesiṁ.

Thereupon, Anuruddha, I developed concentration with applied thought and sustained thought; I developed concentration without applied thought but with sustained thought only; I developed concentration without applied thought and without sustained thought; I developed concentration with rapture; I developed concentration without rapture; I developed concentration accompanied by enjoyment; I developed concentration accompanied by equanimity.
MN128

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Mistake repeated for a very long time is still a mistake. But nevertheless the claim was about contemporary theravadin praxis - which is a revival of previously forgotten meditation practice that began around 19th century.

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As to the general topic of “jhanas”, I think that both options are viable, the “yoga jhanas” or whatever else. Seriously, why not? Samadhi is basis for insight, there are many types of samadhi, so they may be different techniques, as long as they’re rooted in right view and Noble Eightfold Path in general. :slight_smile: I agree with Ceisiwr that it is pretty crazy to think that all this people in the past did practice incorrectly. Maybe they just found a little bit different way, but still within basic principles of Buddha-Dhamma, so working? :slight_smile: Isn’t that actual progress of the tradition, that we have different methods for arriving at the same thing? In this way, even if Visuddhimagga differs from the suttas a little bit, cannot it be different, but still viable way of practice?

Also Sadhu Sadhu Bhante Sekha (Silence) for your analysis on MN19. :pray:

I really think path can manifest in many ways for different people, and it is importaint to be careful not to project our own experience onto the whole world.

It is nothing like the Buddha taught. He did give very general principles regarding meditation, exactly because the particulars manifest differently for different people. Meditation is as rich subject as rich is complexity of human mind. Such is my opinion on the matter.

In the suttas we find 4 iddhipadas, which are one of the basis for developing samadhi. They’re: chanda, viriya, citta and vimamsa. So even Buddha said there are different path to developing samadhi. So the experience might vary enermously. Visuddhimagga approach is a lot based on viriya. Does it contrading teachings of the Buddha? I don’t think so. Is it the only correct way of practice? Also not.

EDIT: sorry I’m duplicating the post, but it wasn’t intented as reply to Venerable Dhammanando, but a general reply. :slight_smile:

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The passage says:

So I steadied my mind internally, quieted it, brought it to singleness, and concentrated it

:dizzy:

Sujato, and others such as Buddhadasa & Brahm, have suggested a different type of vitakka, where there is a movement of mind without the ordinary thinking. The mind is drawn to the object or “reaches out” to the object. 'Vicara" is “exploring” the object or “looking around”. This vitakka & vicara indicate the mind is not completely still when experiencing piti. The piti is influencing the citta move. Where as in the 2nd jhana, the mind becomes perfectly at ease with the piti & sukha.

The energy sounds like the constant energy required to constantly let go. Letting go also requires energy.

Mmmm… I am not sure about the above because the previous verses do not imply the Buddha abandoned unwholesome thoughts but then later those unwholesome thoughts recurred. The previous paragraphs say:

“As I abided thus, diligent, ardent, and resolute, a thought of ill will arose in me…a thought of cruelty arose in me. I understood thus: ‘This thought of cruelty has arisen in me. This leads to my own affliction, to others’ affliction, and to the affliction of both; it obstructs wisdom, causes difficulties, and leads away from Nibbāna.‘ When I considered thus…it subsided in me. Whenever a thought of cruelty arose in me, I abandoned it, removed it, did away with it.

“Bhikkhus, whatever a bhikkhu frequently thinks and ponders upon, that will become the inclination of his mind. If he frequently thinks and ponders upon thoughts of sensual desire, he has abandoned the thought of renunciation to cultivate the thought of sensual desire, and then his mind inclines to thoughts of sensual desire. If he frequently thinks and ponders upon thoughts of ill will…upon thoughts of cruelty, he has abandoned the thought of non-cruelty to cultivate the thought of cruelty, and then his mind inclines to thoughts of cruelty.

:surfing_man:t2:

My view on this matter is unshakeable. I’m in the Buddhadasa, Brahm & Sujato camp here. :smile:

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And what implication do you think this has?

For me, the passage can be easily misinterpreted, as though the Buddha’s concentration was directly (rather than indirectly) the product of his willfulness. For me, samadhi is like draining water. You exercise the will to remove dirt/soil & other obstacles to the flow of water. When these obstacles are removed, the water flows on its own natural gravitation force, with increasing ‘momentum’, through the hole/channel the exercise of your will cleared. This example demonstrates the meaning of samadhi as “collectedness”. The meditator’s will/intent opens a hole/channel and the consciousness naturally gathers/collects itself and flows concentrated through that hole/channel. In summary, the will or thought clears the hole or clears the hindrances. When the hindrances are cleared, consciousness gathers or collects itself into that now empty space in the mind. Something like this. Nice to discuss this matter together. Its late here now. :pray:t2:

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There’s the panner sutta AN 3.101 which shows how thoughts are reduced and refined from mundane towards Supermundane, with the last type of thoughts remaining being about the dhamma, which I take to mean the awakening factor of dhamma-vicaya, which I also take to mean observing and ridding the mind of the 5 hindrances.

This is backed up by MN 48 about sotapannas:

And how does the view that is noble and emancipating lead one who practices it to the complete ending of suffering? It’s when a mendicant has gone to a wilderness, or to the root of a tree, or to an empty hut, and reflects like this, ‘Is there anything that I’m overcome with internally and haven’t given up, because of which I might not accurately know and see?’ If a mendicant is overcome with sensual desire, it’s their mind that’s overcome. If a mendicant is overcome with ill will, dullness and drowsiness, restlessness and remorse, doubt, pursuing speculation about this world, pursuing speculation about the next world, or arguing, quarreling, and disputing, continually wounding others with barbed words, it’s their mind that’s overcome. They understand, ‘There is nothing that I’m overcome with internally and haven’t given up, because of which I might not accurately know and see. My mind is properly disposed for awakening to the truths.’ This is the first knowledge they have achieved that is noble and transcendent, and is not shared with ordinary people.

Notice mundane view (pursuing speculation about this/next world) is abandoned as well.

This here is “thinking about the dhamma” aka dhamma-vicaya, which is again mirrored in “thoughts of a great man” sutta AN 8.30

“Good, good, Anuruddha! It’s good that you reflect on these thoughts of a great man: ‘This teaching is for those of few wishes, not those of many wishes. It’s for the contented, not those who lack contentment. It’s for the secluded, not those who enjoy company. It’s for the energetic, not the lazy. It’s for the mindful, not the unmindful. It’s for those with immersion, not those without immersion. It’s for the wise, not the witless.’ Well then, Anuruddha, you should also reflect on the following eighth thought of a great man: ‘This teaching is for those who don’t enjoy proliferating and don’t like to proliferate, not for those who enjoy proliferating and like to proliferate.’

First you’ll reflect on these eight thoughts of a great man. Then whenever you want, quite secluded from sensual pleasures, secluded from unskillful qualities, you’ll enter and remain in the first absorption, which has the rapture and bliss born of seclusion, while placing the mind and keeping it connected

edit:

Thanks for this, it aligns with the previous discussion we had about outsiders also telling the Buddha that they too overcome the 5 hindrances and develop the 7 factors of awakening. Were the 4 jhanas a unique discovery of the Buddha? - #14 by Thito

Then sorry but there’s no point having a conversation

I also believe that people can have success with both but I see people trying visuddhimagga/hindu? style meditation for years or decades without achieving anything and not trying anything else either because they believe that the jhanas can’t be anything else. They are the victims of this ‘only this is true and nothing else’ attitude which the Buddha criticized a number of times in the suttas.

Well then you may be surprised to learn that people likely haven’t been practicing at all for centuries and most probably millenias.

It totally can and personally I don’t try to pretend that it doesn’t. The problem is the one I mentioned above when people are stuck and fail to try anything else.

Agreed

Yes there is a chance if vsm is wrong about what jhana is then people cannot benefit from the various similes the Buddha gave to master jhana practice. Bhante Thanissaro has a good image for this somewhere when people get lost in the mountains and mistakenly believe to be in a certain spot on the map, they misinterpret the entire landscape around them.

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This may sound bananas, but seriously… Why not? We can still learn about where different perspectives come from, even if we’re not willing to change our minds. And isn’t that the point?

Like Carl, I can’t be convinced that Ajahn Brahm is wrong by a stranger on the internet. Ajahn Brahm’s word carries much more weight to me. But why would that be a problem for having a conversation? Unless the aim was to change the other person’s mind… And I really hope it isn’t.

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That is certainly the primary reason why I communicate with others, other than for purely practical purposes. If my mind hasn’t been changed even slightly by a particular discourse, even if it’s just being a tad bit enriched with new context on a topic or something, or if I have not even been able to change someone else’s mind on a topic then I consider the discourse to be rather a waste of time. I enjoy changing my mind through engaging with alternative points of view. That’s why I read the books that have been callously disregarded in this very thread: to change my mind. Echo chambers are useless chatter.

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Life is short and we have much more productive things to do

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Indeed MN 19 is not so linear. It is back and forth to make clear the overlap steps.

  • Actively removing/preventing 3 bad thoughts to manifest & generate/maintain 3 good thoughts to enter/maintain 1st jhana.

  • Then after successful with 1st jhana, Actively stilling of vitakka vicara of 3 good thoughts to enter/maintain 2nd jhana. Because maintaining vitakka vicara is tiring the body/mind in the long run.

Agreed. Try to correlate the texts with MN 125 or MN 107 which include Satipathana in training of Samma samadhi.

MN 125:


Then the Realized One guides them further: ‘Come, mendicant, dwell seeing an aspect of the body as the body, but don’t think thoughts connected with sensual pleasures. Dwell seeing an aspect of feelings … citta … dhamma, but don’t think thoughts connected with sensual pleasures.’

As the thinking and pondering are stilled, they enter and remain in the second jhana … third jhana … fourth jhana.

Now the samadhi part of N8FP include samma vayama (effort), samma sati (introspection to within) and samma samadhi (balance).

If one is successful in development of Samadhi part of N8FP, it is possible to maintain it for 24/7.

Mistake repeated for a very long time is still a mistake. But nevertheless the claim was about contemporary theravadin praxis - which is a revival of previously forgotten meditation practice that began around 19th century.

It seems to me that the claim is stronger than that. If only Ajahn Nyanamoli’s conception of Jhāna is correct then not only orthodox Theravāda is wrong but so is the esoteric form of Theravādin meditation as well as Sarvāstivādin and Sautrāntika, since they all involved some measure of focusing/concentrating, nimittas and the fading away of the body/ 5 senses to certain degrees. If people want to believe that only 1 monk, or a handful of them, know how to enter Jhāna they can but it doesn’t give much confidence in practicing the Dhamma. It would mean 2000 odd years of no Arahants in any known traditions, but suddenly we can practice the Dhamma fully today (with the west coming to the rescue).

I hadn’t taken that into account Bhante. I made my claim based on the PTS Dictionary

Note. Looking at the combination vitakka + vicāra in earlier and later works one comes to the conclusion that they were once used to denote one & the same thing: just thought, thinking, only in an emphatic way (as they are also semantically synonymous), and that one has to take them as; one expression, like jānāti passati , without being able to state their difference. With the advance in the Sangha of intensive study of terminology they became distinguished mutually. Vitakka became the inception of mind, or attending, and was no longer applied, as in the Suttas, to thinking in general. The explains of Commentators are mostly of an edifying nature and based more on popular etymology than on natural psychological grounds.

Definitions for: vitakka (suttacentral.net)

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I edited one of my posts above but I’ll copy the edit here because it is pertinent:

I’ve recently become aware of Venerable Bhante Vimalaramsi’s teaching on meditation and, though it is printed in books that I can only adequately describe as “Boomer Dhamma” printed in Comic Sans😂, Vimalaramsi seems to also advocate a broad awareness form of meditation that “endures” the hindrances rather than fights them much like what is taught by Venerable Nyanamoli. Very strange parallels between two teachers that could otherwise not be any different…

So it’s more than just Nyanamoli in terms of contemporary Theravada.

Also, from another one of my previous posts

Furthermore, Ch’an/Zen contains within it a heavy emphasis on “broad awareness” type meditations like shikantaza, simply directly observing the mind, and is, in fact, the oldest living Buddhist meditation tradition in the world, having records of lineage going back all the way to Bodhidharma and then the Buddha himself. My guess is that the majority of arahants throughout time have been Ch’an masters, partially because the Ch’an/Zen tradition is so old and had such laser-focus on meditation and Awakening-in-this-life for its entire history, but primarily just because of demographics. Ch’an/Zen has stuff like koans, “just sitting”, broad awareness qigong energy manipulation, you name it. They really went to town with meditation and experimented with everything.

Theravada…didn’t.

Theravada just didn’t do very much meditation for a very long time, or at least not in an institutionalized, organic, dynamic, focused way like the Ch’an/Zen. The Dhamma has never been dead, it was just primarily being done in China rather than Sri Lanka. And that’s not even to say that it wasn’t ever being practiced in Sri Lanka, just that the Theravada meditation tradition very clearly ran out of steam and eventually died. Not exactly a healthy sign of success…

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Venerable Vimalaramsi’s teachings contains a lot of idiosyncrasies. That dukkha is a tightening of the meninges, and so to deal with dukkha/hindrances you have to relax is one of them.

Furthermore , Ch’an/Zen contains within it a heavy emphasis on “broad awareness” type meditations like shikantaza , simply directly observing the mind, and is, in fact, the oldest living Buddhist meditation tradition in the world, having records of lineage going back all the way to Bodhidharma and then the Buddha himself. My guess is that the majority of arahants throughout time have been Ch’an masters, partially because the Ch’an/Zen tradition is so old and had such laser-focus on meditation and Awakening-in-this-life for its entire history, but primarily just because of demographics. Ch’an/Zen has stuff like koans, “just sitting”, broad awareness qigong energy manipulation, you name it. They really went to town with meditation and experimented with everything.

Shikantaza is simply sitting, whilst the Buddha taught a more active meditation with the breath or elements etc. You have to deal with the hindrances, not just observe them. Whilst Zen does make use of mindfulness of beathing, it is only as a pre-liminary. The early Zen however were heavily influenced by the Dārṣṭāntika, a Sautrāntika tradition. Whilst their view was that the sukha in Jhāna was bodily and so the 5 senses could occur, it still taught the idea of focusing at one point during meditation. For example,

Discourse on Higher Advancement (parākramaṇa-bhāgīya) in the Preparatory Path (prayoga-mārga)

5.1 Bhikṣus practising Ānāpānasmṛti will proceed to higher distinction (parākramaṇa-bhāgīya) in their spiritual cultivation if they have successfully abided in positive effects. Their prajñā will also be enhanced. I shall herewith expound it in orderly sequence.

5.2 Once having advanced after abiding in positive effects, the practitioner should, again, abide in positive effect. That is why it is essential for any practitioner to abide in positive effects for the sake of attaining higher distinction (parākramaṇa-bhāgīya) in his practice.

5.3 Meanwhile, he should always concentrate on his nose-tip, making his mind bind firmly there, focusing all his thoughts in the proper observation of the wind. He should then keep his in-breaths and out-breaths firmly in mind and follow them closely in his recollection (anusmaraṇa).

5.4 If he does that well without laxity, he has initially abided in positive effects. Once this has been achieved, then he should keep up his preparatory effort (prayoga-mārga) for further advancement.

5.5 Then the practitioner‘s quest for further benefit will bring about positive abiding, followed by higher distinction (parākramaṇa-bhāgīya). Furthermore, it should also be noted that higher distinction will simultaneously bring in the abiding in further positive effects. Hence, when one passes the positive abiding state and advances further, another abiding in positive effects will come forth.

5.6 Therefore, once the practitioner appreciates fully well the various patterns of ānāpāna (exhaling and inhaling) and their ensuing benefits (guṇa) and faults (doṣa),for instances, whether his breathing is light, or heavy, or cold, or warm, or delicate, or rough, or sticky and or smooth he will fully understand that the concentration on ānā (exhaling) which combines with that of apāna (inhaling), can maintain control over his faculties (indriya-s), with their cognitive objects (ālambana) quietened and subdued to tranquility (śamatha) and nirvāṇa.

5.7 Similarly, there is also a similar way to control the wandering thought-concomitants (caitta) by counting the breaths and focusing on how they enter the body. This, is the essence of ānāpāna (exhaling and inhaling) which stops one‘s thought from chasing the cognitive objects (ālambana-s) Even one‘s thought of the cognitive objects will also be extinguished by its control.

Dharmatrāta-dhyāna-sūtra

In the Zuòchán sān mēi jīng, another Dhyāna-sūtra, it says to to fix at any point from nose through to chest or navel

Question: Why?

Answer: To end thoughts and attentiveness so that the mind is not scattered. While following the breath and counting it, the mind is not stable because of the many disruptions to the mind. Quit counting and the mind is at leisure with little work; hence the mind is single-pointed while it is mindful of the in and out breath. For example, a guard stands by the door and observes the comings and goings of people. The mind at a stop is the same: it knows when the breath is exhaled, going from the navel to the chest, throat, then the mouth and nose. When the breath is inhaled, it moves from the nose and mouth to the throat, chest, and then the navel. By fixing the mind on one place, it is called “stopping.” Furthermore, residing in the method of stopping is contemplation. The coming into being and the ceasing to be of the Five Skandhas during inhalation is distinct; the coming into being and the ceasing to be of the Five Skandhas during exhalation is distinct. When the mind is scattered, the contemplation disappears. By contemplating singularly, contemplation grows, which is called the method of contemplation. By leaving behind the cruder method of contemplation and abandoning dwelling on the gates of the breath, you know that breaths are impermanent. This is called the Turning Contemplation. Contemplating that the Five Skandhas are impermanent, being mindful that the production and extinction of inhalations and exhalations are impermanent, seeing that the start of the first breath comes from nowhere, then contemplating that there is no trace after the breath in that breaths exist due to a combination of causes and conditions and disappear due to the dispersion of causes and conditions is called the method of Turning Contemplation

We also see in the Chán fǎ yào jiě the appearance of nimittas

Question: How can one recognize the signs of single-mindedness?

Answer: When the mind dwells on an image, the body would be soft, gentle, and blissful. All anger, anxiety, grief, and other afflictive mental dharmas are ceased.174 The mind acquires swift blissfulness never before experienced, which surpasses the five desires. Because the mind is pure without any defilement, the body will shine brightly. It is like a pure and clean mirror [shining] the light externally, or like the shining light of bright pearl that appears, illumines, and manifests in the pure water. After having seen these signs, the cultivator‘s mind is calm, tranquil, joyful, and delightful. It is like a thirsty person, who digs the earth searching for the water. If he sees the moist mud, then he will get the water soon. The cultivator practices in a similar way as such; at the beginning of the practice, it is like digging a dry earth for a longtime without stopping; as he sees the signs of moisture, he knows himself that he will get the water soon. Having known by oneself that one will attain the meditative samādhi soon, one must diligently concentrate, joyfully believe, gather the mind, and move it to enter the deep samādhi. Give rise to the thought that ―I have already cursed the five desires.‖ See those who seek after their desires as extremely detestable, as one sees a dog, who, unable to get good food, chews on stinking manure. According to these various conditions, you should curse desire as a fault. One‘s mind gives rise to sympathize with those who experience the five desires. Their own minds have blissfulness already, but they do not know how to seek for it. Instead, they seek for the external impurity and faulty joyfulness. Throughout day and night, the cultivator should always practice diligently various wholesome dharmas, which support the achievement of meditative samādhi.

Question: What are the marks of attaining the first dhyāna?

Answer: At first, one uses proper mindfulness to admonish and halt five desires. Although one has not attained the ground [of the first dhyāna], the mind is joyful, delightful, soft, harmonious, and gentle; the body has bright light. When one attains the first dhyāna, its mark is that it continuously changes, increases, and excels [than before]. Because the four elements of the Desire Realm spread fully all over the body, which is soft, harmonious, gentle, and joyful signs, and the mind leaves bad desire and unwholesome deed, then the samādhi of single-minded thought can cause one having joy and happiness.183 Forms created in the Form Realm have the feature of bright light. Hence, the cultivator sees the wonderful and bright light emitting from the body internally and externally. The mind of the cultivator changes differently. Within the angry situation, one does not get angry. Within the joyful situation, one does not have [much] joy. The eight kinds of worldly dharmas cannot move the cultivator.184 Faith, respect, shame, and conscience largely change and multiply. As for the clothes, food, and drink, one does not crave and attach to them. One only considers various wholesome deeds and meritorious morality as valuable, and others are worthless. One does not attach to even the five celestial desires, how much more the five impure desires of the secular world. For those who have attained the first dhyāna, these are the features.

You go on to say

Theravada just didn’t do very much meditation for a very long time, or at least not in an institutionalized, organic, dynamic, focused way like the Ch’an/Zen. The Dhamma has never been dead, it was just primarily being done in China rather than Sri Lanka. And that’s not even to say that it wasn’t ever being practiced in Sri Lanka, just that the Theravada meditation tradition very clearly ran out of steam and eventually died. Not exactly a healthy sign of success…

But this simply is not true. There has always been a meditative tradition in Theravāda, be it orthodox or esoteric. As for Zen, many of its practitioners ended up saying we are already awakened. That doesn’t look like a healthy sign of success to me. Of course, if you want to think all these meditation masters and meditative traditions just didn’t know what they were doing for 2000 odd years, until Western monks discovered the true way, you can.

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I would really appreciate not continually being painted as a colonial westerner who is contemptuous of my own religion. All I am trying to say in this thread is that maybe non-concentration approaches to meditation should be considered given that, on the whole, they have been emphasized in the oldest and most vibrant Buddhist meditation tradition in the world and seem to square with what is described in the early texts.

In order to do this I am simply pointing out that:

On the whole, they were not meditating in Thailand prior to Ajahn Mun. On the whole, they were not meditating in Burma before the vipassana movement. Theravada was dead in Sri Lanka by the 18th century and had to be restarted by the Thais, and I’m guessing that those Thais that re-seeded Sri Lanka were not meditating much either. Also, by the way, Theravada was named Theravada by a western monk. Western-influenced modernism is baked right into the DNA of contemporary Theravada. The whole dhammayut order was basically Mongkut emulating the centralized structure of the Roman Catholic Church. So if you’re going to keep going on about Orientalism maybe go take it up with the Thai monarchy and the theosophical society and leave me out of it.

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I don’t have an issue with less absorbed forms of meditation. I’m possibly on the verge of accepting that method of practice myself. I don’t think that means the fully absorbed approach is just plain wrong though. I think if the Jhana factors are there then it’s Jhana, and I bear in mind that the Buddha didn’t denounce meditation that is detached from the 5 senses.

That said, I still think Venerable Vimalaramsi’s teachings on meditation are a bit out to lunch.

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It should also be noted that orthodox Theravada doesn’t have an issue with less absorbed forms of meditation either. What is called Jhana lite is just the Theravadin’s access concentration (a pretty good attainment in itself, according to its tradition). I find a lot of the hostile intolerance of other forms of meditation comes from the non-absorbed Jhana crowd. This isn’t aimed at you specifically.

I just finished reading the book this morning, and to say that it is “eye-opening”, “mind-blowing” and even potentially “life-changing” is an understatement.

The chapter “Perspectives” in particular was very interesting, and challenges conventional wisdom about the interpretation of many of Buddha’s teachings.

I must confess I speed-read through the last 2 chapters as I was so interested in absorbing the content. I will try and re-read the book again more slowly to pick up pieces that I may have missed on the first reading.

The author is refreshingly honest and self-aware that what he is claiming is controversial and self-checks on his own motivation for doing so. I wish I was as humble and self aware in my own thoughts.

Anyway, much to think about and it fits in with other stuff I have read recently which has caused me to re-evaluate my understanding of Buddhism and approach to soteriology.

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