Query Regarding Anapanasati: Focus vs. Control in Anapanasati

Regarding Anapanasati, some sources state that the suttas emphasize observing the breath without control, while others disagree.

  1. Is there only one correct interpretation, or is there room for a combination of focus and subtle control?
  2. Can both approaches be considered valid?

Medical vs. Experiential Perspectives

From a medical viewpoint, conscious breathing is often seen as beneficial for deep concentration. However, I’ve encountered differing opinions on this within Anapanasati practice. I’d appreciate your insights.


Seeking Clarity from Suttas and Practitioners

I’m seeking greater clarity on this topic, particularly from the Anapanasati Suttas and the experiences of fellow practitioners.


Personal Practice and Validity

I find it easier to concentrate on the breath when I subtly and gently control it. Is this incorrect?

  1. Is there a universally “right” or “wrong” way, or can different approaches to subtle breath control (versus pure observation) be valid for individuals?
  2. Furthermore, is it always true that controlling the breath is “inferior” to simply observing it in Anapanasati?

Please accept my sincere and kind apologies if I am reiterating this point

Personally, I think that controlling the breath misses the point of mindfulness of breathing and mindfulness in general. The faculty of mindfulness simply observes and knows. The only feature of the breath to be concerned with is whether it’s long or short.

“Mendicants, when mindfulness of breathing is developed and cultivated it is very fruitful and beneficial. Mindfulness of breathing, when developed and cultivated, fulfills the four kinds of mindfulness meditation. The four kinds of mindfulness meditation, when developed and cultivated, fulfill the seven awakening factors. And the seven awakening factors, when developed and cultivated, fulfill knowledge and freedom.”

Controlling the breath doesn’t seem to serve a purpose, rather the opposite.

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Do you know how it’s possible to be mindful of breathing without exerting minimal control over breathing?

Please, I would like to know the thoughts of Ven. @Sunyo , @sujato, @Brahmali if possible also

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Well, analysing this quite logically:

MN118:

passambhayaṁ kāyasaṅkhāraṁ assasissāmī’ti sikkhati,

They practice like this: ‘I’ll breathe in stilling bodily processes.’

passambhayaṁ kāyasaṅkhāraṁ passasissāmī’ti sikkhati.

They practice like this: ‘I’ll breathe out stilling bodily processes.’

  1. Breath is part of the bodily processes.
  2. Stilling all physical processes also stills breathing.

Now, the sutta doesn’t make a difference between body and breathing. Furthermore, being mindful of the instruction while breathing in, being mindful while breathing out, implies a level of control beyond being a passive observer of the body and/or breath.

I think the exposition allows the practitioner to focus the awareness on breath first, almost as if it’s own thing. Then, there’s no seperation of body or breath. Then once this awareness is established, all bodily functions are stilled.

SA 810

身行休息。入息念時如身行休息。入息念學。

When he’s mindful of his body’s activity calming as he inhales, he mindfully trains [according to cessation] while the body’s activity calms as he inhales.

When he’s mindful of his body’s activity calming as he exhales, he mindfully trains [according to cessation] while his body’s activity calms as he exhales.

The Chinese here is quite something. I think they’re close enough to suggest that the Indic root was something like the Pāli we have. It still looks quite alien tho. @cdpatton thoughts?

Specifically for breath / body control, I think the sutta is explicit enough - there’s a buildup of awareness of breathing, awareness of entire body, leading to calming down the entire body. Calming the body while you breath irregularly, unharmoniously, etc. is a hard thing. :slight_smile:

SA810 I think has more room for interpretation, depending on the Chinese.

I don’t think “control” is a right word for it. Stilling means something else - otherwise, I can control my breathing to breath rapidly, and that would miss the mark entirely.

Therefore I don’t think @Adutiya is completely wrong - the point isn’t to maintain a control over breath or body it seems. The point is to have a relaxed, tranquil abiding. To some, it might require a more conscious active effort - to others, it might look like being conscious of not trying to make an extra effort.

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My impression from the descriptions I’ve translated is that the idea is for one’s breathing to become more and more calm. A good metaphor is to think of breathing in and out as like waves on a beach. Waves can be big and violent, or they can be very small and gentle. The practitioner lets their breathing settle down and become less and less. There was a school of thought that breathing stops altogether in the fourth dhyana, and sometimes the two practices seemed to be done together …

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That’s exactly where I was headed. Thanks a lot, @Dogen !

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It’s difficult for me to imagine breathing completely stopping. Wouldn’t it just become very, very subtle at most? If breathing really ceased, that would indicate death, wouldn’t it?

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True, once breathing actually stops, you soon die afterwards if not dead already. :stuck_out_tongue:

It’s always a suspension before the next breath, and the body can go to some great lengths between the two. 1 breath / minute is very easily achievable for most meditators / swimmers. Then it becomes ridiculous levels. 1 breath / 5-10 minutes is very hard to detect externally, and it’s a very achievable goal for any serious practitioner without an underlying medical condition.

Someone breathing once every couple of minutes might just look like completely stopped breathing, they might not look like they have any chest activity at all or anything appear on a glass to the nose.

World record for holding a breath is 24 minutes. I can see a seasoned meditator spending entire day looking like dead, with such little physical activity. I think it makes more sense to consider these kind of very drawn out, very slow breathing (1 breath per 5-10 minutes) as “cessation of breath” that ancients talk about.

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The sutta instructions leave a lot of room for interpretation. So you have some who say to only give bare attention to the breath, some say to control the breath, some say something in between those two. Some say to watch the breath at the nose tip or upper lip, some say to watch it at the abdomen, some say to watch it wherever it’s felt most strongly. Some say follow the breath into the body, some say don’t follow the breath into the body. Some say the third instruction (experiencing the body) is referring only to the breath, some say it is referring to the whole physical body. Some say to use counting to help the mind stay with the breath, some say to use a meditation word like Buddho, some say not to mentally recite anything. And on and on.

So it goes without saying that there are many differences in technique being taught. And it’s natural to ask if there’s a right or wrong way to do something. In this case, I don’t think there’s a universal right or wrong way as far as those technical details go. They’re all wholesome expressions of the practitioner putting effort into practicing Dhamma, puzzling things out, and learning about and calming their mind with the help of the breath.

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Thats slow! What are the aims and benefits? Do you have any links to Buddhist techniques for this? Any Suttas? Thanks :slightly_smiling_face:

A glance at the actual Sutta shows anyone who teaches “to only give bare attention to the breath” is teaching the mindfulness alone aspect of the Sutta. That’s a small part of the overall Sutta.

Similarly for those just teaching “controlling” the breath.

In terms of right and wrong approaches Id say the skillful approach is to avoid both these extremes.

Just follow the Sutta.

In reality, yes, I think you are right. The stories usually conjure some miracle like the gods keeping the meditator alive or breathing through their hair pores.

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Well the explicit aim is extinguishment. :slight_smile:

But besides that, there’s a few benefits I’ve found out, besides the benefits of a lower metabolism (with the caveat that I’m in no way medically trained, and this is just a dilettante practitioner’s researches):

For breathing, Oxygen specifically, is like fire. We need to breath rapidly to convert ATP into energy in a flight-or-fight situation, but that is also a destructive process.

By slowing down breathing considerably, we generate less oxidative stress. You know all those drugs and herbs etc. that’s promoting “Antioxidant properties”? Well, breathing less literally does the same thing, instantly, for free. :slight_smile:

(Hyperoxia - being exposed to high levels of O2 (Wikipedia))

(Oxygen toxicity: cellular mechanisms in normobaric hyperoxia)

Then there’s your body’s entire O2 / CO2 sensitivity is a whole another thing. For example, trying to hold my breath right now in the morning randomly, I would gas out and suffocate under a minute easily. Easing into it in meditation, I’ve seen 3-5 minutes per breath easily.

The more you’re used to higher CO2 levels, the less anxious you get. This is a gross oversimplification of these recursive systems, but that’s the gist of it. By recursive, I mean that these systems are weird - just force yourself to breath faster and shallower, and your body starts to think you’re in danger, and raises stress levels to prepare for action.

Thus people who chronically overbreathe (low CO2, high O2) become more and more sensitive to small CO2 rises, which can trigger anxious, FoF responses more easily.

(Study shows how slow breathing induces tranquility)

Interestingly enough, Hyperventilation (fast, shallow breathing) causes cerebral vasoconstriction, reducing cerebral blood flow to decrease the oxygen supply in the brain.

I think this is because the body needs to protect the sensitive brain from overpumping it with O2. If O2 levels are high in the blood, the only way your body can handle this task is by reducing the blood flow to the brain.

So you’re simultaneously causing oxidative stress in the entire body, whilst depriving your brain of the blood it actually needs. :upside_down_face:

Since breathing is so intricately linked to our FoF system, it bears to mention generally why having high anxiety / FoF activity is bad in the long run.

FoF mechanisms are a way for us to sprint for a short while to deal with a fast paced, short danger quickly. They’re a fallback survival mechanism. To give you the energy and strength you need to fight a predator or fly the scene, body shuts down a TON of non-essential mechanisms, like digestion, muscle building, auto immune activity, etc.

If you’re trying to prevent a nuclear fallout, you don’t have time to fit your tie, do you?

TL;DR breathing is like small explosions inside the body, like in the case of a combustion car engine. It’s absolutely necessary for the body to move, but being literal combustion explosions (in micro scale), you can see how it’s wise to regulate it.


As for Buddhistic guides on “Breathing”, really the only suttas we have are MN 118 (same trope repeated in MN 86, SN54.12, SN54.8, SN54.11) / SA 810. The 16 steps of breathing trope is probably the only actual practical guide you’ll find on breathing in the EBTs.

Visuddhimagga / Vimuttimagga might have some more details, I don’t know. They’re too dense for my smooth brain. :sweat_smile:

Bk. Thanissaro’s With Each % Every Breath is an amazing analysis of practice, full of practical guides, you can see his actual experience in his words.

Bk. Analayo’s Praise for Mindfulness of Breathing touts itself as a practice guide, but I find it too academic compared to Thanissaro.

Analayo does stick to suttas more precisely, and Thanissaro relies obviously more on his own experience. For practice, I prefer the latter, but the former is still invaluable as an academic study.

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The normal adult human respiratory rate is 12-20 breaths/minute. Are you saying that during your meditation, you can get to the point where you take a breath only once every 3-5 minutes? How long can you maintain this respiratory rate? Did you train yourself to do this—if so, how?

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Alright, mods, I’ll reply to this message because it’s not really about Buddhist practice, just a tangent about breath control so I hope that’s alright.

My mom’s trained in clinical psychology, so she taught me the most basic 488 breath control technique early on for migraine and anxiety attacks.

To those who don’t know: 488, 487, 478 etc, there are different variations and protocols, basically all boil down to the same thing: 4 seconds inhale, 8 seconds hold, 8 seconds exhale. If you add it all up, it amounts to 3 breaths per minute already.

Almost anyone can do this with no problem, but first few breaths might feel a little challenging if you’ve never done something like this before, or have a breathing related condition, idk.

The more you do, the easier it gets, like 20 seconds per breath first, then 25, 40, 60, etc… You get the picture. This is true both during a single session and across different sessions.

There’s other variations, like 4-16-8, same principle, just a longer hold. I think this is more to train swimmers and people who need high O2 levels.

But if you follow something like 488 to stretch those numbers out slowly, you’ll get something like 12-25-25, etc, specifics might depend on your preferences, biology. Being mindful of the breath ( :wink: ) you’ll be able to tell what it is your body needs more.

Really long. Truly, the biggest challenge at that point is just not falling asleep. Of course, combining these approaches with traditional Buddhist meditation can offer a path other than sleep. I’m afraid I can’t publicly talk about those experiences. :slight_smile:

Really though, if you’re sitting idly, relaxed, without any pressure to do anything else… There’s literally no reason or benefit to an elevated metabolism and increased respiratory rate. Such slow, deep breathing doesn’t “tax” the body, it’s not something like fasting where it’s actually uncomfortable. On the contrary, it’s actually relaxing and healing.

Really, there’s no other secret sauce to it. Probably the world’s simplest instructions and most amazing benefits ever. The more you do it, the more you can do it.

Again, NOT MEDICAL ADVICE. Probably safe for %99 people, but people have the weirdest medical conditions. :slight_smile:

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Thank you for answering my questions. Very cool!

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My thoughts on mindfulness vs. control in the sutta is that throughout the meditation, the awareness of the breath is kept with mindfulness in conjunction with directing mindfulness to each step of the instructions.

At the start, one directs interested attention towards the breath, simply observing that breathing is there in whatever form, without any purpose to regulate the breath in any way. The faculty of mindfulness simply knows that the breath is short or the breath is long. The knowing is just an observation and isn’t mentally concerned with the characteristics of the breath except that it may be long or short. Since the sutta states that “Mindfulness of breathing, when developed and cultivated, fulfills the four kinds of mindfulness meditation. The four kinds of mindfulness meditation, when developed and cultivated, fulfill the seven awakening factors.” I think that knowing that the breath is long or short might aid sati to keep an active monitoring, the first two of The Awakening Factors (mindfulness, investigation).

At this juncture, effort towards calming the body or stopping thoughts is not raised yet, as the body and mental formations/vendana will get their turn later in the meditation trajectory. When physical sensations and mental commentary are noticed, attention to those are abandoned and mindfulness moves back to simply observing the breath.

Once a sufficient amount of steady mindfulness is established on the breath, one’s attention moves to include the entire body. The body is experienced as just a living, physical body in whatever condition it is in. No attempt is made to change anything or make the body feel different, just observe the body. Each in-breath marks attention while the body is observed in an interested manner. Each out-breath marks attention while the body is observed in an interested manner.

Once the body has been observed steadily with each in and out breath sufficiently, mindfulness is directed at the body with an intention to calm the body. This is more of a letting go rather than doing anything. As one would be mindful of being still as to not disturb a bowl of water filled to the brim, the body is allowed to be calmed and stilled by compassionately letting go of tension. With each in-breath, the body is let to become still. With each out-breath the body is let to become still. Like the strings of a lute, not too tight, not too loose. The breath will still on its own without effort.

Speaking of effort, Right Effort is:

  • Restraint
  • Abandonment
  • Cultivation
  • Preservation

One would restrain and abandon the unwholesome, but there is nothing unwholesome about the breath. The characteristics of the breath will reflect what is happening in the body and in the mind. If the body and mind are agitated or stilled, the breath will reflect that.

I think it might be possible that Right Effort might include restraining the impulse to control the breath, as bodily and mental agitation is dukkha, is reflected in the breath and one needs to see dukkha as it is, how it arises, how it fades away and the path. I’ve heard Ven. Brahmali say that meditation is more of letting go rather than doing anything and certainly observing letting go is a major part of the sutta.

Just my thoughts, always open to clarification!

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But for what purpose would one control it?
What is the reason one attempts to control it in the first place?

Actually there is one thing that is to be controlled! That is - guard the senses from abhijjha & domanassa (wanting/dejection).
Finally as many suttas state (eg.: SN47.35): to properly practice mindfulness one also has to pay attention to whether one is rid of abhijjha & domanassa (wanting/dejection) for the world.

“Mendicants, a mendicant should live mindful and aware. This is my instruction to you.

And how is a mendicant mindful?
It’s when a mendicant meditates by observing an aspect of the body—keen, aware, and mindful, rid of covetousness(abhijjha) and displeasure(domanassa) for the world. They meditate observing an aspect of feelings … mind … principles—keen, aware, and mindful, rid of covetousness and displeasure for the world. That’s how a mendicant is mindful.

And how is a mendicant aware?
It’s when a mendicant knows feelings as they arise, as they remain, and as they go away. They know thoughts as they arise, as they remain, and as they go away. They know perceptions as they arise, as they remain, and as they go away. That’s how a mendicant is aware. A mendicant should live mindful and aware. This is my instruction to you.”

Thanks for the great post! :folded_hands:

I wonder how I can best understand that?

If breath is intrinsically wholesome, what about hunters who apparently use their breath when shooting to kill better?

If breath is intrinsically wholesome,what about someone rapidly breathing in a panic attack. That rapid breathing can trigger and worsen the panic?

:thinking:

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I want to draw your attention to a few details, although my speech may not necessarily answer the question.

In the (Maha)satipaṭṭhāna Sutta, in the section on mindfulness of the body, one of the prescribed exercises is Kāyānupassanāsampajāna — or “clear comprehension of bodily actions”. So it is indeed possible to associate sati (mindfulness) with active, voluntary processes.

a mendicant acts with situational awareness when going out and coming back; when looking ahead and aside; when bending and extending the limbs; when bearing the outer robe, bowl and robes; when eating, drinking, chewing, and tasting; when urinating and defecating; when walking, standing, sitting, sleeping, waking, speaking, and keeping silent.

Another observation is that, from a medical point of view, breathing is a semi-voluntary process, or if you prefer, a process with both voluntary and involuntary components. So it seems possible to practice mindfulness of breathing both by controlling the breath and by passively observing it. And I believe that, at least at the beginning of the practice, voluntary control does not interfere with the quality of mindfulness.

But it makes perfect sense to eventually be able to let go of voluntary control of the breath. And perhaps a key point of ānāpānasati is precisely being able to modulate the breath without resorting to deliberate control — to “control without controlling,” so to speak.

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I didn’t say that the breath is intrinsically wholesome, but I did say that it can reflect the condition of the body and mind and the presence of the Five Hinderances.

Lots of people practice mindfulness. My guess is that few practice Right Mindfulness, particularly hunters.

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