“They speak of ‘consciousness’. How is consciousness defined?”
“It’s called consciousness because it cognizes. And what does it cognize? It cognizes ‘pleasure’ and ‘pain’ and ‘neutral’. It’s called consciousness because it cognizes.”
“Wisdom and consciousness—are these things mixed or separate? And can we completely dissect them so as to describe the difference between them?”
“Wisdom and consciousness—these things are mixed, not separate. And you can never completely dissect them so as to describe the difference between them. For you understand what you cognize, and you cognize what you understand. That’s why these things are mixed, not separate. And you can never completely dissect them so as to describe the difference between them.”
“Wisdom and consciousness—what is the difference between these things that are mixed, not separate?”
“The difference between these things is that wisdom should be developed, while consciousness should be completely understood.”
Are ‘pleasure’ and ‘pain’ and ‘neutral’ absolute or relative state? Absolute mean: it fixed. Relative mean it depends on person who cognize.
What are real examples of this?
For you understand what you cognize, and you cognize what you understand.
Hi. In my opinion, i.e., taking a guess, fixed vs relative is not the purpose of the teaching quoted.
In my opinion, the teaching quoted is for the purpose of describing/explaining the ‘absolute/fixed’ causality below:
‘The six classes of feeling should be understood.’ That’s what I said, but why did I say it? Eye consciousness arises dependent on the eye and sights. The meeting of the three is contact. Contact is a condition for feeling. Ear consciousness arises dependent on the ear and sounds. The meeting of the three is contact. Contact is a condition for feeling. Nose consciousness arises dependent on the nose and smells. The meeting of the three is contact. Contact is a condition for feeling. Tongue consciousness arises dependent on the tongue and tastes. The meeting of the three is contact. Contact is a condition for feeling. Body consciousness arises dependent on the body and touches. The meeting of the three is contact. Contact is a condition for feeling. Mind consciousness arises dependent on the mind and thoughts. The meeting of the three is contact. Contact is a condition for feeling. ‘The six classes of feeling should be understood.’ That’s what I said, and this is why I said it. This is the fifth set of six.
MN 148
The above said, I think the teaching below will result in a ‘relative/subjective’ consciousness:
And what is dependent origination? Ignorance is a condition for choices. Choices are a condition for consciousness. Consciousness is a condition for name and form. Name and form are conditions for the six sense fields. The six sense fields are conditions for contact. Contact is a condition for feeling.
SN 12.2
Therefore, in my opinion, ‘pleasure’ and ‘pain’ and ‘neutral’ can arise both as absolute & relative states.
Maybe my english is not very good so you misunderstood me. When I say ‘absolute’ I mean the states ‘pleasure’ and ‘pain’ and ‘neutral’ are cognized the same for everyone. When I say ‘relative’, I mean that the cognized states of ‘pleasure’ and ‘pain’ and ‘neutral’ differ from person to person.
Yes, I understand your question as you have explained your question.
As I wrote, the teaching below may explain the cognized states of ‘pleasure’ and ‘pain’ and ‘neutral’ differ from person to person.
And what is dependent origination? Ignorance is a condition for choices. Choices are a condition for consciousness. Consciousness is a condition for name and form. Name and form are conditions for the six sense fields. The six sense fields are conditions for contact. Contact is acondition for feeling.
SN 12.2
For example, for a person with very much ignorance, cognizing Scotch Whisky or Coca Cola may give rise to pleasant feelings. However, for a person with less ignorance, cognizing orange juice or a milk-shake may give rise to pleasant feelings.
in mn148, consciousness arises depending on sensory organs and external objects. in SN12.2, consciousness arises depending on choices. In your opinion, why is there this difference?
Are you sure it’s mn128? Can’t see anything about consciousness there.
Either way, consciousness is tied to the 6 senses, it’s what knows the object, and consciousness, contact and object all happen together.
Dependent Origination isn’t about time or events, it’s about the condition required for the next step to occur. i.e. “when this is, that is, when this isn’t, that isn’t”. So if there is no ignorance then there is no condition for sankhara to arise. It’s not saying literally when (as in time) things happen, but what is the condition for things to happen. E.g. when it rains, there are clouds, when there are no clouds, it doesn’t rain. Clouds are a condition for rain.
This means you can’t have consciousness without sankhara.
These feeling tones change from moment to moment, even within one person, what to say of another.
The first slice of chocolate cake is pure pleasure…sukha vedana…the third becomes just ‘meh’ …neither sukha nor dukha… the tenth is pure pain… dukkha vedana.
So the states are relative, based on contact with rupa, and conditioned by the status of the outer and inner sense bases, powered by Conciousness.
Knowing that one knew a particular state is due to the function of Conciousness. Which of course arises as part of the interdependent triad of namma-rupa-vinnana.
Very good question. The following statement is found in the suttas:
In what way, bhikkhu, do you understand in detail the meaning of what was stated by me in brief?
My answer to your question is MN 148 is an example of the Buddha teaching “in brief” or “more brief”. SN 12.2 is an example of the Buddha teaching “in detail” or “in more detail”.
There are many suttas where Dependent Origination is taught starting with sensory organs and external objects, such as MN 18, the end of MN 38, MN 148, SN 12.43, SN 12.44, SN 35.105, etc.
