Question for Ajahn Brahmali about arahant after death

[Bodhisattva]

@UpasakaMalavaro

Hahaha, just imagine being the greatgreatgreatgreat…and so on son of the Buddha.^^

Here is the next part of the passage in the Lotus Sutra. Those who are factually carrying out the Buddhist Way are all sons and daughters of the Buddha. The Dhamma transcends family ties and makes them Sanghic:

All phenomena from the very first
have of themselves constantly borne the marks of
tranquil extinction.
Once the sons of the Buddha have carried out this path,
then in a future existence they will be able to become Buddhas.

-From the Lotus Sutra.

[UpasakaMalavaro]

@Brahmali

In the cultural context these views mean that the self is annihilated at death, etc. The Buddha does not agree that a self is annihilated at death, and so he says it is not his view and also not declared by him.

So the problem I have is not understanding the cultural context? That saying doesn’t exist after death implied a self in ancient india?
That could be the case and would help me greatly to solve my problem.

@Brahmali

The view is wrong in the sense that it is based on a false assumption. If the Buddha affirmed it, the listener would draw the wrong conclusion.

Would you agree with me that without implying a self saying “doesn’t exist after death” only on the ground that there is nothing there, would be correct in the context of someone like me who has not much knowledge on the indian context?

[UpasakaMalavaro]

@anon92904629

No it is not …your mind initially representing itself not to understand at this time you may have more insight in the future as taking a nap of rest maybe useful short term for you to reconsider the buddhas teachings as to me they are insightful concepts of thoughts i hope you are rejoiced with the insight of the buddha in your lifetime too

Ok, now I think I understand your post, thank you, you too

[UpasakaMalavaro]

@Bodhisattva

@UpasakaMalavaro

Hahaha, just imagine being the greatgreatgreatgreat…and so on son of the Buddha.^^

Here is the next part of the passage in the Lotus Sutra. Those who are factually carrying out the Buddhist Way are all sons and daughters of the Buddha. The Dhamma transcends family ties and makes them Sanghic:

All phenomena from the very first
have of themselves constantly borne the marks of
tranquil extinction.
Once the sons of the Buddha have carried out this path,
then in a future existence they will be able to become Buddhas.

-From the Lotus Sutra.

I am sorry, I don’t have much faith in Mahayana Buddhism.

[Upasaka_Dhammasara]

The Buddha said, “My disciples may be thousands of miles away from me,
but if they are mindful of my precepts they will definitely attain the Way. But if those who are in close contact with me have non-virtuous thoughts, they will never attain the Way. The important thing is to practice. How can there be the slightest benefit from staying close to me if one does not practice?”

THE SUTRA OF THE FORTY-TWO SECTIONS

Let’s practice

[Bodhisattva]

That’s alright, as long as you have faith in the Buddha’s words, as you are having now, you will grow in Wisdom to be just like Him. This is His mission, and He has already succeeded in it. Hence the name He has: “Siddhartha.”

[Brahmali]

@UpasakaMalavaro

That saying doesn’t exist after death implied a self in ancient india?

That’s right.

@UpasakaMalavaro

Would you agree with me that without implying a self saying “doesn’t exist after death” only on the ground that there is nothing there, would be correct in the context of someone like me who has not much knowledge on the indian context?

It would certainly be more correct. But that is only because you have an understanding of Buddhist teachings. If you told someone who knows nothing about Buddhism that a “Buddhist saint” (arahant) does not exist after death, they would draw the same conclusion as the ancient Indians. The point is that the views of the ancient Indians, and similar views today, depend on a more fundamental misperception of experience. All ordinary people sense that they exist in a way that is not true from a Dhamma perspective. It is this underlying sense that gives rise to the articulated views that an arahant does not exist after death.

So although it is true that cultural context matters, the problem is actually deeper than that.

[UpasakaMalavaro]

@Brahmali

It would certainly be more correct. But that is only because you have an understanding of Buddhist teachings. If you told someone who knows nothing about Buddhism that a “Buddhist saint” (arahant) does not exist after death, they would draw the same conclusion as the ancient Indians. The point is that the views of the ancient Indians, and similar views today, depend on a more fundamental misperception of experience. All ordinary people sense that they exist in a way that is not true from a Dhamma perspective. It is this underlying sense that gives rise to the articulated views that an arahant does not exist after death.

So although it is true that cultural context matters, the problem is actually deeper than that.

Do you mean that the people asking the question do so because they want to know if they will stop existing or if they can live forever in nibbana? And then the buddha basically said both is wrong? To me the question in itself is not that I care to much if I exist it was just weird to me that there was a seeming contradiction, and I want to understand that topic fully.

[Brahmali]

@UpasakaMalavaro

Do you mean that the people asking the question do so because they want to know if they will stop existing or if they can live forever in nibbana?

Yes, that’s pretty much what it comes down to.

[faujidoc1]

@UpasakaMalavaro

unicorns don’t exist

What??? No way!

[Emptiness]

The unborn……

……the escape from the born.

Perfectly right in the middle between the extremes……the middle way.

……that which is permanent.

[Saurabh]

@UpasakaMalavaro

Sir I will try to help you.

When you close your eyes do you stop seeing things? No. You don’t neither us & noone. Tell me who are you? That which sees through your eyes, smells through your nose, feels through your skin, hears through your ear & tastes through your tongue is you.

I guess your name is UpasakaMalavaro. The thing who calls himself UpasakaMalavaro is your ‘self’. Hope you are with me till here.

Now there is distinction between the things you see and UpasakaMalavaro right?

Now during meditation we experience different states but there is duality present. Which duality? The duality means there is distinction of one who is experiencing and thing which is experienced. In other words there is ‘self’ in you who is seeing things or feeling things even after you suppress your 5 senses…right?

Now close your eyes and try to see that ‘self’ who calls himself UpasakaMalavaro, which is actually seeing and feeling and experiencing! Trust me it’s very hard (meditation or vipassana or whatever it is actually directed to have this experience) but when you will do that then at a certain point you would see that there is no self and there is noone who sees and noone who experiences. And that’s when you have found the dimension which is beyond this ‘self’ and this is something called (maybe) first stage of awakening called ‘sotapanna’ or ‘stream-enterer’.

In simple words when you want to see and experience you can. But when you try to see who or what actually is seeing and experiencing, you will see that there is noone. And that’s what we call teaching of non-self in buddhism.

Now on paper it is truth but can we really reach above experience by just thinking and discussing over it? No we can’t because it is not an easy thing. For it to happen we have path noble eightfold path.

Now they say there are four stages of awakening …1)stream-enterer 2)once-returner 3) non-returner and last of those stages is 4)arhat. You are asking if arhat exists after death? Answer is yes he/she exists but not in a way that word ‘exist’ implies. And if you ask if he does not exist after death? then also answer is yes…he does not exist after death… but not in a way that words ‘not exist’ imply.

So for a ‘self’ or person who has attained first stage called ‘stream-enterer’ is who has experienced this ‘non-self’ once only. And I believe arhant is one who has cut all the things that were the cause of this ‘self’ believing that it exists permanently and who dwells in a dimension where there is no beginning and no end…how? He dwells in that dimension by not dwelling anywhere… because for arhat there is no ‘self’ which takes birth and dies…and that’s why we say he/she has attained ‘deathless’ or ‘nirvana’ and there is no rebirth or suffering for him/her.

I believe I could help. If not plz ask me again what you did not understand. I will try to elaborate further in easier words.

[Saurabh]

@UpasakaMalavaro

I believe that these arhats or stream enterers or whatever are actually higher level beings than us and we should just try to comprehend them by believing that we Cannot completely comprehend them unless we are equal to them.

[Gillian]

@UpasakaMalavaro

I know the simile with the flame, but it also confuses me to be honest.

It’s better just to accept that those of us who’ve not yet reached enlightenment will go on feeling confused until we do reach it.

Worrying a lot about objective everyday truth is likely to to increase the barrier between us and liberation rather than decrease it.

[UpasakaMalavaro]

The thing is I meditated before finding buddhism and it led be to believe in some wrong things, true self, etc. Only after hearing the dhamma did I understand that as wrong. So I personally believe the more knowledge we have about stuff like that the less likely we are to go wrong. It’s like with an incomplete map, how are we gonna find the destination? Not merely by walking where we feel like… so I believe when we are confused we won’t find an answer just by meditating.
But that’s just my opinion.

[Gillian]

It’s a very step-by-step process, and a bit different for everyone.

[Bodhisattva]

The Buddha in His time went on what many people believed to be an unconventional Path, but He succeeded in His goal, and has created a very true and reasonable Path to Enlightenment. Concerning yourself with Nirvana shows you are taking the Dhamma very seriously, and if you set your goal as Enlightenment, you will be a Sage among men. I am very thankful for what the Buddha did, and to those Monks who bow lower than the other, to show how ordinary they want to seem among us to Teach the Dhamma, I am forever grateful. May you follow this magnanimous Path to the end.

[Saurabh]

No sir …we can actually find answer by meditating. But there are actually more than 1000 kinds of meditation and this word meditation is itself misleading… problem is that it’s not as easy as choosing matching clothes for ourself and that’s why I believe Sangha the third jewel is there…to guide us. And It will take merit for that to happen. Maybe you could change your method to find asnwers which you are looking for.

And about self I think it maybe ultimately true that there is no self…but we can’t experience that. Inside we are there…and for me for ex there is self existing in me. So I take that doctrine of non-self by faith. And this self won’t realize non-self till we create causes for that to happen …that is by following precepts and generousity and being kind to others and thereby ultimately disciplining mind.

[Bodhisattva]

No Self can very clearly be experienced because it is a foundational doctrine of Buddhism. But it cannot be experienced by mental speculation, you also have to practice .

[Nimal]

SN 22.85 and DN 9 might help you to resolve your problem.
With Metta