Question re - Tatiya­vitthā­ra­sutta?

Regarding above Sutta.
Q1: What is asaṅ­khā­ra­pari­nib­bāyī and sasaṅ­khā­ra­pari­nib­bāyī ?
Q2: What is the meaning of vadāmī?
Q3: Are dhammānusārī , saddhānusārī mean Cula Sotapanna?
Q4: Does maximum seven lives applicable to Cula Sotapanna?

The translation by Ven . B.Bodhi is as follows

`Bhikkus, there are these five faculties. What five. The faculty of faith, energy, mindfulness, concentration and wisdom. These are the five faculties.
One who has completed and fulfilled these five faculties is an arahant. If they are weaker than that, one is an attainer of Nibbana in the interval; if still weaker, attainer of Nibbana upon landing; if still weaker, attainer of Nibbana without exertion; if still weaker, an attainer of Nibbana with exertion; if still weaker, one who is bound upstream, heading towards the Akanittha realm; if still weaker, a once returner; if still weaker, a stream enterer; if still weaker, Dhamma-follower; if still weaker, a faith follower.

asaṅ­khā­ra­pari­nib­bāyī and sasaṅ­khā­ra­pari­nib­bāyī these two terms respectively refer to Nibbana **without exertion and Nibbana **with exertion. ( This is my guess because my Pali is very weak)
Q3. I do not know.
Q3. (Q4) No. Maximum seven lives are applicable only to Sotapanna.

With Metta

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I found the answer tho this question in the next verse. It appears you are incorrect.
It appears maximum seven lives applicable to Cula Sotapanna.

If you read the translation of SN 48.24, Dhamma and faith followers are not included in those who have only 7 lives. They are the last two and come right after those who have 7 lives.
With Metta


A good discussion by Piya Tan on the issue of cula-sotapanna:

with metta


Can someone translate this?

tato mudutarehi kolaṃkolo hoti, tato mudutarehi sattak­khat­tu­paramo hoti, tato mudutarehi dhammānusārī hoti, tato mudutarehi saddhānusārī hotī”ti.


It appears, that the following Sutta is applicable for my first question.

In nut shell Sasankhara means Vipassana practitioner and Asankhara means Samatha practitioner.

Can we say seven lives means to seven fetters?

Thanks ,that’s how I understand it now.
It appears incorrect to say Sotapanna attain Nibbana in seven lives.
The word Sotapanna is not used here.

Here, saṅkhāra means “effort”. In the suttas, there is no such thing as a “samatha practitioner” and “vipassana practitioner”. After studying this matter in depth for my first book, I came to realize that the commentary should be actively distrusted in such cases, as it seeks to impose this later doctrine on the suttas.

Rather, these are two aspects of the mind that need developing in meditation as part of the eightfold path. Everyone will develop them, but they may differ in turns of emphasis, talent, or manner of development.

Notice that in AN 4.169 the practitioner is said to develop a number of samatha practices, including, for example, contemplation of the body parts. The primary purpose of this is to let go of desire, which is the purpose of samatha (AN 2.31):

Samatho, bhikkhave, bhāvito kamattha­ma­nubhoti? Cittaṃ bhāvīyati. Cittaṃ bhāvitaṃ kamattha­ma­nubhoti? Yo rāgo so pahīyati
What is the outcome of developing samatha? The mind is developed. What is the outcome of developing the mind? Lust is given up.

This contemplation is often misunderstood in modern times to be vipassana, but this is incorrect. In both the suttas and in traditional texts such as the Visuddhimagga it is primarily samatha. Which is, of course, not to say that it does not have a wisdom dimension, because everything is connected, and everything can be used for wisdom. But vipassana is, first and foremost, contemplation of impermanence, suffering, and not-self, and these are not mentioned here. The explicit, primary purpose is to eliminate desire, which is samatha.

To return to AN 4.169, the sasaṅ­khā­ra­pari­nib­bāyī is also said to possess the faculty of samādhi, which is just the four jhanas.

The difference between the sasaṅ­khā­ra­pari­nib­bāyī and asaṅ­khā­ra­pari­nib­bāyī is a matter of emphasis. For the sasaṅ­khā­ra­pari­nib­bāyī, meditation is a struggle, and they must pursue many difficult practices to achieve the goal. For the asaṅ­khā­ra­pari­nib­bāyī, meditation comes easily, and they can simply sail up through the jhanas.


sabba­saṅ­khā­resu aniccānupassī

Isn’t this contemplation on impermanence?

Indeed it is. I should have been clearer, at that point I was referring to just the practice of contemplation of body parts.

The sasaṅ­khā­ra­pari­nib­bāyī practices a balanced path that develops both serenity and discernment.

It appears to me Sasankhara does not practice Jhana and Asankhara practice Jhana?

No, as I noted above:

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I overlooked the mention about five Indriyas.
By the way, Abhidhamma translate these two terms as prompted and un-prompted.
What is your opinion on this.
I know that you are not an Abhidhamma fan.

This is a specific Abhidhamma meaning.

In Abhidhamma, these terms refer to performing an act entirely under ones’ own volition, and doing the same act because of the influence of pressure of someone else. In the latter case, the intentionality is shared with the person who does the prompting, and consequently the kammic consequences for the doer are less.

This would apply, for example, in a case of war, when a soldier is ordered to kill. They still make a choice and must bear the consequences of that, but it is less that if they simply decided to murder someone. The one who gives the order, of course, also makes their own kamma.

I may be wrong, but I don’t think this has anything to do with the sutta usage, I think the terms just happen to be the same. In sutta usage, saṅ­khā­ra­ here means “effort”, while in the Abhidhamma it means “intention”, specifically the intention of another.

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Do you know what is Kolamkolo means?

“from family to family”. It is referring to the succession of rebirths in different families. From AN 3.87:

With the ending of three fetters, they go family to family. They will transmigrate between two or three families and then make an end of suffering.

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My last question to you on this topic.

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“I say”. It’s frequently used by the Buddha for emphasis.

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