First of all about four jhanas. That is something which is so pleasurable that even the word ‘pleasurable’ cannot define it. As it is attained by suppressing 5 senses(1st jhana). I will tell you, jhanas means something after breathing meditation but before Vipassana(I hope you know Vipassana the insight meditation). Basically person feels a feeling which is pleasurable beyond explanation by just concentrating his mind and ignoring all thoughts. It is reached only after you stop thinking. And you should take this words as truth (to understand it) that it will be the best ‘feeling’ you have felt ever in your life. And if person dwells in it continuously he will lose interest in other activities as he will just enjoy the bliss of concentration (jhanas). That’s why we see that many saints actually took samadhi by dwelling in jhanic bliss forgetting even food(by choice offcourse) as they have felt something pleasurable beyond 5 sense pleasures.
[Here I wanna tell you one thing about why people are addicted to marijuana, drinking, intoxicants or drugs collectively. We have receptors in our complete body for chemicals which are produced when we concentrate and attain jhana. And intoxicants gives us the FRACTION OF GLIMPSE of that jhanic bliss of 1st stage but it has a price. What is price? It’s that you will lose your sense just as drug addicts do. ]
But this jhanic bliss cannot be expressed in words. Only thing true about that is…when a person experiences it, then only he will understand.
Now I hope you agree that 1st jhana is attained by suppression of 5 senses…then we can only imagine logically that 2nd, 3rd, 4th jhana will be actually and obviously better than 1st one.
Now… yes you are right in saying that pleasant feeling is not actually pleasant compared to neutral feeling which is actually more pleasant but this is only understood by reaching it and not by trying to understand it with concepts and logical mind, unless you just believe it.
Also …yes nirvana is cessation of experience which means something ineffable is there, something which is known by not trying to know anything and succeding in that, something is there which can be felt only by trying not to feel anything and succeeding in that.
And you asked which of the following is true… I would say first one is true. …
1.:There is suffering and there is happiness and what is called neutral is a finer form of happiness and final nibbana is the finest form of happiness but it is different than nothing in the sense that atheists understand nothing which happens after death, because happiness remains.
Yes happiness remains because for him who has attained nirvana…he has realised that true happiness is attained by not searching for happiness. It’s like as great Nagarjuna said, ultimate truth is that, ‘there is actually no ultimate truth’.
The Suttas will tell you that pleasure based on craving and mental formations are cessated eventually in the fourth Jhana:
“Furthermore, with the stilling of directed thoughts & evaluations, he enters & remains in the second jhana… the third jhana… the fourth jhana… the dimension of the infinitude of space… the dimension of the infinitude of consciousness… the dimension of nothingness… the dimension of neither perception nor non-perception. He remains touching with his body in whatever way there is an opening there, and he knows it through discernment. It is to this extent that one is described by the Blessed One as released both ways, though with a sequel.
“Furthermore, with the complete transcending of the dimension of neither perception nor non-perception, he enters & remains in the cessation of perception & feeling. And as he sees with discernment, the mental fermentations go to their total end. He remains touching with his body in whatever way there is an opening there, and he knows it through discernment. It is to this extent that one is described by the Blessed One as released both ways without a sequel.”
Bur the experience of the Brahmaviharas is Transcendental to the kind of pleasure you are asking about, and I hope that you can consider those.
And the purpose of saying it isn’t happiness that one feels in that Jhana, while a Stream Enterer said all that He felt was happiness, is based on what people consider the conditioning of happiness, when one is conditioned to happiness, they tend to attach themselves to it. So the happiness a Stream Enterer feels is a happiness of non-attachment, and it is the Brahmavihara or Joy, Transcendental to happiness that comes from gratifying one’s senses. The Dalai Lama mentions many times that He is happy and even writes books on it, but it is such a Transcendental happiness that it cannot equate to the mundane emotion of gratifying one’s senses.
It isn’t isn’t neutrality, but you are right to call it a finer form of happiness. The finer form of happiness is found in the experience of the Brahmaviharas, Joy, Equanimity, Compassion, and Metta while Meditating in the Jhanas.
I believe you are searching for explanation as whatever we will answer you will dismiss it by saying ‘thanks for your opinion’. I feel sad for not being able to answer you satisfactorily. I would suggest one thing that you will be completely satisfied only after you sit and close your eyes and follow instructions of keeping precepts and procedure to attain jhanas. You can start from aanapan meditation meaning breathing awareness, then try to stop your thoughts by trying to ignore them. And then maybe after some practice you will feel something then try to hold on to that feeling which is felt by stopping thoughts…that feeling will be so pleasurable, something like explained in doctrine of jhanas. You will reach there only by being still. It is reached only by stopping journey. Just do not give any heed to your thoughts and stop them and do not think of anything not even jhanas…then there is possibility that you will reach there. I believe after this experience your questions and curiosity will be completely satisfied.
Thanks, I already have had spiritual experiences with bliss that is hard to describe, but to me it was just a finer form of pleasure and I would not describe them as neither pleasure nor pain. That’s why I am asking my question.
That your experience might be related to jhana. But one characteristic of jhana is that it is devoid of thoughts.
The explanation you are seeking is sought only by experience and not by explanation provided by others.
It’s like fish wants to know what actually is nature of land …but fish wants to know it in a way that it understands water and any explanation which tries to defy his idea about land, fish dismisses it as another opinion. We are like fish sir trying to know the nature of land. It’s just that some fishes believe in the words of turtle by faith who knows both land and water and some fishes dismiss it as an opinion. For those fishes who dismiss it…only way is to experience it. By ‘turtle’ I mean the explanations provided by dhamma.
Nothingness, no. It is not that you cease to flow! You enter the Stream then for the final time, becoming a non-returner. Suffering ceases, craving ceases, sadness ceases, but Nibbana is cessation, but there is a Stream described that one enters, of Selflessness, and of Metta. You will never cease to have Compassion for others. The purpose or Buddhism is to build Compassion.
I would say it is different in a sense that this very concept of existing and not existing is broken down.
Nirvana,…I would say is beyond this duality of existence and non-existence. It’s like fishes discussing about air by wonderin if it has bubbles or is it having land.
Nirvana without remainder is still Nirvana. If you think you will be nothing after you die, what about the Nirvana factor? Is there no Nirvana either? But there is, so there is still life after the Parinirvana of the Arhat. Nirvana, and ultimately Buddhahood, is the purpose. We’re not here to undo “creation”, but to fulfill our purpose in life.
Haha I want to say one thing sir. There is limit to words, and trying to understand some things through concepts only as things which break our basic concepts about life,…we tend to dismiss them just as if someone says to us that our whole life is wrong. Best bet would only to experience than trying to understand through conceptual mind which has its limits. And I believe you could be on the verge of going beyond that limit…that’s why I believe you can attain these things easily than me or many others because ultimately you want to break through these limits…just as Bodhisattva Siddhartha (but yours is in a very timid way compared to him) felt by seeing 4 signs which caused him to renounce everything…just to seek answer.
So you are basically saying an arahant gets reborn and after that he can become a buddha?
I don’t agree with that view and I also don’t think it is supported by the early buddhist texts.
No he does not mean that arhat gets reborn he actually means that arhat (maybe) can control that about himself … whether he wants to get reborn or not…
As do you know you will get reborn or not? No you don’t neither me. But Lord buddha says that till we have craving we will take birth so we believe we will reborn. Now arhat is someone who has control over this process or we can say he does not even find it necessary to get reborn as he has cut off all the things which would cause suffering and dissatisfaction and thereby rebirth…he actually has (maybe) complete freedom of choice regarding rebirth…unlike us.
I might be wrong as well …but that’s what I can think of.
Nirvana, and ultimately Buddhahood, is the purpose. We’re not here to undo “creation”, but to fulfill our purpose in life.