Questions about Nanavira Thera, Anicca and Anatta

It’s been some time since I began studying Nanavira Thera’s writings, and I was struck by the boldness of his ideas. To me he is “proud as a Shakya.” However, honestly, I find that his remarks on anicca (impermanence) seem quite divergent from Mahayana thought, which personally always leaves me somewhat unsettled.

I agree with the idea that the “pure flux” — which OBVIOUSLY entails constant change without any subject that is moved — leads to a denial of becoming. Nevertheless, I’ve never seen any fundamental problem with that, always interpreting this perspective as a healthy approach within the Doctrine of Awakening.

I would like to know what you think about the conception of anicca as “universal impermanence” or about the presence of the “pure flux.” In your opinion, what constitutes authentic Buddhism with regard to these questions? Was Nanavira Thera wrong?

Here is a passage from Nanavira:
“Kierkegaard (op. cit., p. 277) points out that Heraclitus, who summed up his doctrine of universal flux in the celebrated dictum that one cannot pass through the same river twice, had a disciple who remarked that one cannot pass through the same river even once. If everything is changing, there is no change at all. The assumption of a single absolute time, conceived as a uniform continuity (or flux) of instants, leads at once to a very common misconception of the Dhamma…”

1 Like

To have a ‘flow’ there must be some ‘thing’ that changes over time.

But, from the Buddhist philosophical perspective under discussion, there is no actual ‘thing’. Nor is there ‘time’. These are by- products of sakayaditthi (Entity view).

Manifest reality is simply…. THIS.

It is just this vinnana, arising in dependence on namma-rupa, powering contact at the sense organ and consequent vedana, sanna and sankhara… arising and passing away.

THIS has the nature of being Anicca. It is a manifestation of underlying processes, of causes and conditions… it has no substance, it is wholly impermanent.

And now manifest reality is… THIS.

And …THIS.

THIS does not become THIS which doesn’t turn into THIS.

The concept of THIS which is past, and THIS which is present and THIS which is future occurs because of the reification by Mind of THIS into some ‘thing’, an entity.. a ‘moment’ of what is but an arising/passing… a process… not a ‘thing’. And then conceiving that the past moment changed into the present moment which will become the future moment… thus giving rise to ‘Time’.

Its like conceiving of a particle - a ‘photon’ to represent a packet of energy. And then conceiving a ray of light.. that particle moves from ‘here’ to ‘there’ over ‘time’.

Such is sakayaditthi .. and so Mind conceives of the past, present and future… an implicit ‘moment’ that changes and becomes something otherwise.. aka Flow.

None of which is the truth.

There is just… THIS.

**********

(This represents my limited understanding as of now, please disregard it if its not useful)

2 Likes

I think it would be wise to quote what is Nanavira’s ideas on Anicca specifically is, and what exactly is the Mahayana idea of it that seems different? :slight_smile:

Anyway, I think SN 35.93 gives us a clue, with Bhikkhu Bodhi’s translation:

“Bhikkhus, consciousness comes to be in dependence on a dyad. And how, bhikkhus, does consciousness come to be in dependence on a dyad? In dependence on the eye and forms there arises eye-consciousness. The eye is impermanent, changing, becoming otherwise; forms are impermanent, changing, becoming otherwise. Thus this dyad is moving and tottering, impermanent, changing, becoming otherwise.

“Eye-consciousness is impermanent, changing, becoming otherwise. The cause and condition for the arising of eye-consciousness is also impermanent, changing, becoming otherwise. When, bhikkhus, eye-consciousness has arisen in dependence on a condition that is impermanent, how could it be permanent?

“The meeting, the encounter, the concurrence of these three things is called eye-contact. Eye-contact too is impermanent, changing, becoming otherwise. The cause and condition for the arising of eye-contact is also impermanent, changing, becoming otherwise. When, bhikkhus, eye-contact has arisen in dependence on a condition that is impermanent, how could it be permanent?

“Contacted, bhikkhus, one feels, contacted one intends, contacted one perceives. Thus these things too are moving and tottering, impermanent, changing, becoming otherwise.

Note, that Bhante @Sujato translates:

Eye consciousness is impermanent, decaying, and perishing.
Cakkhuviññāṇaṁ aniccaṁ vipariṇāmi aññathābhāvi.

Personally, I think ‘vipariṇāmi aññathābhāvi’ is better understood in Bhikkhu Bodhi’s translation: Changing, Becoming Otherwise.

Therefore, here, we have this sutta describing the very state of experiencing as “Changing, Becoming Otherwise”, so perhaps this Flux is not an inappropriate term to apply.

Thus these things too are moving and tottering, impermanent, changing, becoming otherwise.

This entire sutta describes all the experience field being dependent on something else, and all of those things being subject to change, alteration, moving; and just so the conditions move and change, so the things that depend on them change.

Also, we have the famous SN 56.11 describing, in Bhikkhu Bodhi’s translation again:

“yaṁ kiñci samudayadhammaṁ sabbaṁ taṁ nirodhadhamman”ti.
“Whatever is subject to origination is all subject to cessation.”

Now, this sounds cool and all, but “Sabbe saṅkhāra anicca.” would mean, “All conditioned things are unstable (subject to change).”

Whatever is Asankhata (Unconditioned) would not be subject to change. So, we can as well define something stable and unchanging, that is, the very fabric of flux-field itself. :slight_smile:

Which is what AN 3.136 seems to be doing:

‘All conditions are impermanent.’

Whether Realized Ones arise or not, this law of nature persists, this regularity of natural principles, this surety of natural principles.


To recap:

  • Suttas usually explain something in several similar words; the only such description of anicca seems to be vipariṇāmi, aññathābhāvi, which leaning on Bhikkhu Bodhi’s translation, could be understood as “Changing, Becoming Otherwise”.

  • We also have “Whatever is subject to origination is all subject to cessation.” as a general teaching.

  • We can also define a meta-rule about conditioned things being subject to change, and this meta-rule (probably due to being unconditioned?) being stable, persisting.

Perhaps this’ll be of some help. :slight_smile:

2 Likes

This is in fact the Visuddhimagga / Abhidhamma Commentary explanation.

I think it’s problematic for it intoroduces another discreet, atomic unit into the discussion, that arises and ceases rapidly - a point not really supported in Nikāyas proper, to my knowledge. :slight_smile:

Moreover, I find it directly contradicting the Subject to change, alteration descriptions baove: If discreet units arise and cease rapidly, they are not altered at all, they just arise and cease. Alteration means something else.

We should also be cautious about mistaking “The finger pointing at the moon” (our concepts) for “The Moon itself” (the reality). In other words, Map is not the territory. :slight_smile:

So, we use words conventionally to describe something. What is that something, with Anicca? It’s that nothing conditioned stays fixed and stable, and should not be depended on, fixated with.

These are utilitarian psychotechnics, for the purposes of disillusionment and peace. :slight_smile:

I don’t need to understand the exact mechanics of just how an apple gets rotten, to understand that it’s stupid to buy a ton of apples and expect to feed myself for the rest of my life. :smiley:

I believe that’s a more useful way to analyse and contemplate anicca, rather than fixating on the minute specifcs.

2 Likes

Please review our Guidelines and FAQs to respect how we moderate this forum’s content. Regarding the use of AI:

Note: I’m Brazilian and lazy as such. Everything written below was translated into English by ChatGPT:

Thank you very much for the reply — any contribution helps. My central question is whether Early Buddhism really sustains the idea of a “universal impermanence.”

There is a subtlety in the idea that everything would be a pure flow without a subject that is altered. In a certain sense I don’t disagree with what you said, but I think it’s worth laying out my thought in more detail to see whether you disagree.

Sorry for the length of the reply.

All the theses I will present below are literally the philosophy of Louis Lavelle (who praises Buddhism a great deal), but because he is a Christian this may sound a bit metaphysical (although not strictly theological). Before becoming a Buddhist I was a Christian and I still retain a little of that habit of externalizing the Absolute.

In short, “Becoming” does not depend on anything else to exist or to manifest: it is the cause of itself (causa sui). That does not mean fragmenting being into cause and effect, but isolating the essence of the act and reducing it to its pure exercise. I will call “Becoming” simply the “Act”. The Act does not need an external support nor a stimulus in order to be exercised; it knows neither effort nor duration.

Instead of the Act depending on a “given” (a thing), it is the given that is contingent and depends on the Act. The given never appears in isolation, because the very notion of “given” always presupposes an act that gives it. The given has no reality by itself: it exists as something given to someone, as existence directed toward an other. Matter — passivity in its pure state — exists only insofar as spiritual activity sustains it. The perceived object is the reflected image of that creative activity: an appearance that exists only in relation to consciousness.
Two main points support this:

A) There is no thing-in-itself. As Lavelle observes, metaphysics tends to look for a world beyond phenomena — a world of things “behind” what we see — but to know those things would be to transform them into phenomena. There is no exterior that is not an object, that is, something that can have meaning independently of a subject; therefore the thing-in-itself is not merely unknowable, it is contradictory.

“Metaphysics, as the name itself has always suggested, studies a world that is beyond phenomena. It is generally believed to be a world of things that lie behind the world we see; but we could not know those things, because to know them would be to transform them into phenomena. This is because there is no exterior that is not an object — that is, that cannot have the same nature as an object.” (Louis Lavelle, Spiritual Intimacy)

B) It is not possible for movement to have a beginning. For activity to arise it would be necessary that activity already exist; “arising” cannot precede arising itself. Medieval Christian philosophy illustrates this well: “Action and passion will, in reality, be one and the same act, if the passion means that very same act that the action means: which is evident. Now, the passion really does mean that very same act that the action means; thus the illumination, which has as its subject the earth, is the same illumination which has as its principle the sun, so that by one and the same act the sun illuminates and the earth is illuminated. Therefore, action and passion are, in reality, one and the same act.” (Elements of Philosophy, Dom Thiago Sinibaldi).

This shows that the act is cause of itself, in the sense that the cause is cause of the effect, but both effect and cause are one and the same act.

The belief that we perceive a distinct movement or activity is, in that sense, illusory. To perceive is necessarily to act: when I perceive something, I am performing an act. But if it is not possible to be active and passive at the same time, and if every relation is established between opposites, then what we perceive must be taken as passive.

If there is any action of the “I” in the perception of the “other,” then the “I” only reaches its passive pole, since it is impossible for an action to be action in relation to another action — as Aristotle indicates, every relation occurs between opposites. Moreover, if an act were perceived, that activity would have to be simultaneously active and passive. (This is a slight alteration of a passage from an essay I wrote on abstract art.)

The “visible movement” is, in practice, a set of givens — analyzable objects. The distinction between “water evaporating” and “leaves falling” only becomes possible when we remove from them the movement itself. Intuitively: you do not see the “succession,” you see fixed images in succession, like frames of a video, but not the very “succeeding” of the images. If you saw that, the movement you see would continue even if time froze.

It follows logically (based on the critique of the thing-in-itself, point A) that the smallest of movements, when exercised and before becoming a phenomenon, is identical to the others. The effort of blinking is, as a pure act, identical to the effort of the Buddha in Awakening, or to the feats of the gods of Olympus — at least insofar as they occur before any distinction or objectification. There is an “Olympic effort” in putting on a sock; it is essentially the same operation as Moses parting the sea (or the divine causing it).

Of course, taken as a given — and therefore as something that already “does not move” — movement only exists in the presence of a subject who undergoes change. One cannot conceive the shedding of a cat’s fur without there being cat or fur. However, that is not movement: movement, in its essence, is indistinct, motionless, invisible and empty.

Ultimately, it makes no sense to oppose activity and passivity as separate terms, because noting activity requires an action — observing requires acting. To perceive that there is “action” is already a passion; thus the perceived “action” ceases to be pure action. Hence the Daode Jing states: “The Way that can be spoken of is not the constant Way.”

MAYBE, but ONLY MAYBE, the movement that Nanavira is denying to be “anicca” is movement as phenomenon, and not as operation.

I hope this is sufficient to show the great confusion that inhabits my mind. I also hope that this answer was helpful.


The same text in Portuguese:
OBS: Sou brasileiro e preguiçoso como tal. Tudo escrito abaixo foi traduzido ao inglês pelo ChatGPT:

Muito obrigado pela resposta — qualquer contribuição já ajuda. Minha dúvida central é se o Budismo Primitivo realmente sustenta a idéia de uma “impermanência universal”.

Há uma sutileza na ideia de que tudo seria um fluxo puro sem um sujeito que seja alterado. Em certo sentido, não discordo do que disse, mas acho que vale a pena expor meu pensamento em mais detalhes para ver se discorda.

Todas as teses que apresentarei a seguir são literalmente a filosofia de Louis Lavelle (que elogia bastante o Budismo), mas como ele é cristão, isso pode soar um pouco metafísicas (ainda que não sejam teológicas, estritamente falando). Antes de ser budista eu era cristão e ainda tenho um pouco desse vício de externalizar o Absoluto.

Enfim, o “Devir” não depende de outro para existir ou se manifestar: ele é causa de si (causa sui). Isso não significa fragmentar o ser em causa e efeito, mas isolar a essência do ato e reduzi-la ao seu exercício puro. Vou chamar o “Devir” simplesmente de Ato. O Ato não precisa de um suporte exterior nem de um estímulo para se exercer; ele não conhece esforço nem duração.

Em vez de o Ato depender de um “dado” (uma coisa), é o dado que é contingente e depende do Ato. O dado nunca aparece isoladamente, porque a própria noção de “dado” pressupõe sempre um ato que o dá. O dado não tem realidade por si mesmo: ele existe como algo dado a alguém, como existência dirigida a um outro. A matéria — passividade em estado puro — só existe na medida em que a atividade espiritual a sustenta. O objeto percebido é a imagem refletida dessa atividade criadora: uma aparência que só existe em relação à consciência.
Dois pontos principais sustentam isso:

A) Não há coisa-em-si. Como Lavelle observa, a metafísica tende a procurar um mundo além dos fenômenos — um mundo de coisas “por trás” do que vemos —, mas conhecê-las as transformaria em fenômenos. Não existe um exterior que não seja objeto, isto é, algo que tenha sentido independente de um sujeito; portanto, a coisa-em-si não é apenas incognoscível, é contraditória.

“A metafísica, como o próprio nome sempre sugeriu, estuda um mundo que está além dos fenômenos. Acredita-se geralmente que seja um mundo de coisas que se encontram por trás do mundo que vemos; mas não poderíamos conhecer essas coisas, pois conhecê-las seria transformá-las em fenômenos. Isso porque não existe um exterior que não seja um objeto — isto é, que não possa ter a mesma natureza que um objeto.” (Louis Lavelle, A Intimidade Espiritual)

B) Não é possível haver um começo do movimento. Para que a atividade surja seria necessário que já houvesse atividade; o “surgir” não pode preceder o próprio surgimento. A filosofia medieval cristã ilustra isso bem: “A ação e a paixão serão, na realidade, um e mesmo ato, se a paixão importar aquele mesmo ato, que a ação importa: o que é evidente. Ora, a paixão importa realmente aquele mesmo ato, que a ação importa; assim a iluminação, que tem por sujeito a terra, é a mesma iluminação, que tem por princípio o sol, de modo que por um e mesmo ato o sol ilumina e a terra é iluminada. Logo, a ação e a paixão são, na realidade, um e mesmo ato.” (Elementos de Filosofia, Dom Thiago Sinibaldi).

Isso mostra que o ato é causa de si, no sentido de que a causa é causa do efeito, mas tanto o efeito quanto a causa são um único e mesmo ato.

A crença de que percebemos um movimento ou uma atividade distinta é, nesse sentido, ilusória. Perceber é necessariamente agir: quando percebo algo, estou realizando um ato. Mas se não é possível ser ativo e passivo ao mesmo tempo, e se toda relação se estabelece entre opostos, então aquilo que percebemos deve ser tomado como passivo.

Se há alguma ação do “eu” na percepção do “outro”, então o “eu” só alcança seu polo passivo, já que é impossível que uma ação seja ação em relação a outra ação — como Aristóteles indica, toda relação se dá entre opostos. Além disso, se um ato fosse percebido, essa atividade teria que ser simultaneamente ativa e passiva. (Essa é uma leve alteração do trecho de um ensaio que escrevi sobre arte abstrata.)

O “movimento visível” é, na prática, um conjunto de dados — objetos analisáveis. A distinção entre “água evaporando” e “folhas caindo” só se torna possível quando removemos deles o próprio movimento. Intuitivamente: você não enxerga a “sucessão”, enxerga imagens fixas em sucessão, como frames de um vídeo, mas não o próprio “suceder” das imagens. Se visse isso, esse movimento que vê continuaria mesmo se o tempo congelasse.

Daí decorre logicamente (com base na crítica da coisa-em-si, ponto A) que o menor dos movimentos, quando exercido e antes de se tornar um fenômeno, é idêntico aos demais. O esforço de piscar é, enquanto ato puro, idêntico ao esforço do Buda no Despertar, ou às façanhas dos deuses do Olimpo — ao menos enquanto ocorrem antes de qualquer distinção ou objetificação. Há um “esforço olímpico” em vestir uma meia; é essencialmente a mesma operação de Moisés ao abrir o mar (ou do divino ao fazê-lo).

É claro que, tomado como dado — e portanto como algo que já “não se move” — o movimento só existe na presença de um sujeito que sofre as mudanças. Não se pode conceber a queda de pelos de um gato sem haver gato ou pelos. Porém, isso não é movimento: o movimento, em sua essência, é indistinto, imóvel, invisível e vazio.

Em última instância, não faz sentido opor atividade e passividade como termos separados, pois notar a atividade exige uma ação — observar exige atuar. Perceber que há “ação” já é uma paixão; assim, a “ação” percebida deixa de ser pura ação. Por isso o Daode Jing afirma: “O caminho que pode ser expresso não é o caminho constante.”

TALVEZ, mas SÓ TALVEZ, o movimento em que o Nanavira está negando ser “anicca” é o movimento enquanto fenômeno, e não enquanto operação.

Espero que isso seja suficiente para ver a tamanha confusão que está a minha mente.

The same text in Portuguese (I used chatgpt to translate into English):

Explicando o que EU entendi do ponto de Ñāṇavīra Thera: para ele, a compreensão correta de anicca deve ser estritamente fenomenológica, sem qualquer projeção de tempo e espaço concebidos como entidades externas. A ideia de que as coisas “mudam constantemente a cada nanossegundo” pertence ao domínio da física, não da experiência imediata; é uma visão horizontal do mundo, e portanto inaplicável ao dado fenomenológico.

Segundo Ñāṇavīra, essa visão horizontal pressupõe um ponto de referência exterior à experiência — algo que, em termos fenomenológicos, é impossível.

A experiência não se apresenta como uma sequência de pontos discretos de início e fim. Os suttas falam das três características de um fenômeno determinado como: o surgimento é manifesto, o desaparecimento é manifesto, e a mudança enquanto permanece é manifesta. Ele afirma que essas três características não são etapas distribuídas ao longo de uma linha temporal; são três modos de contemplar um fenômeno presente, recém-surgido na consciência.

Por isso essa leitura se articula com sua crítica à interpretação “linear” — uma crítica semelhante àquela feita por Bhikkhu Bodhi na discussão sobre paṭiccasamuppāda. Ñāṇavīra sustenta que paṭiccasamuppāda não deve ser entendido como uma cadeia temporal de causas e efeitos desenrolando-se num fluxo contínuo. Em vez disso, trata-se de um princípio de dependência mútua, simultânea e não-temporal.

É nesse contexto que ele fala de um “mudar enquanto permanece o mesmo”. Um fenômeno que se intensifica ou diminui gradualmente permanece sendo o mesmo fenômeno enquanto sua presença se altera.

Também fiz outro comentário acima explicando mais sobre “operação pura”. No Mahayana a Originação Dependente parece implicar em “operação pura”, e não só em “operação em cima de tais fenômenos”.

Aqui alguns materiais que pediu:

The same text in Portuguese:
Falando do Visuddhimagga, veja o que Nanavira Thera diz sobre ele:

The Path of Purification (Visuddhimagga), by Bhadantācariya Buddhaghosa, translated by Ñānamoli Thera (Colombo: A. Semage, 1956)

“This book provides an explanation of the Buddha’s Teaching that satisfies the immature thinker, who, thinking that he understands what he does not understand, remains a puthujjana. Unless one first understands that, in spite of the Visuddhimagga, in spite of the Commentaries, in spite of all that is not Sutta, one does not understand the Buddha’s Teaching, no progress towards understanding the Buddha’s Teaching is possible. Anaññāte aññātamānī sunanto pi saddhammam abhabbo niyāmam okkamitum kusalesu dhammesu sammattam. (Anguttara Nikāya V,152: iii,175) Cf. also ibid. p. 107, §§ 4&5.” (He is quite bold)

De qualquer forma, embora pareça haver um sujeito em constante mudança, a ideia de mudança universal contradiria o “princípio da identidade” na lógica, assim como todos os outros princípios semelhantes. Talvez faça sentido como “Verdade Absoluta”.

(I used chatgpt to translate into English.)

Dare I suggest that this verges on Zen Koans?
(There are so many learned minds here I cringe to interact at all, but hope to learn)

2 Likes

Why bother with Nanavira’s ideas. Lord Buddha described impermanent things as arising is evident, disappearing is evident, and change, while it stands is evident. This can be verified by any more or less inteligent observer. Continuous change is kind of theory, divorced from real experience.

1 Like

From Guidelines:

The Main Theme of this Site is Early Buddhism
We are interested in discussing early Buddhist texts, their meaning and historical context, how these teachings evolve and relate to later traditions, and how they may be applied in the present day.

Part of the aim of these forums is to analyse how EBTs relate to later traditions and exegetes. :slight_smile:

To do that, sometimes we need to discuss said materials comparatively with the EBTs.

We do the same thing periodically with other Venerables, like Bhantes Sujato, Brahmali, Analayo, Sunyo… Etc.

Venerable Nanavira had some interesting ideas. Personally, I often find them too intellectual and not enough practice oriented, so usually they’re not more than intellectual curiosities for me.

However, his notes on Pāli have been immensely useful to me, and gave me some much needed insight at times.

Moreover, he does command an interesting following of his own. So to what extent his views are compatible with EBTs is a crucial thing to investigate.

As long as the discussions are done civilly, it’s a good excuse to practice Right Speech and analyse relevant Sutta passages again, wouldn’t you agree? :slight_smile:

2 Likes

The problem with the idea of anicca as universal flux does not lie in personal interpretations of the teaching, but in the reasoning behind the idea itself — it the result of a flawed reasoning. It’s like saying that two plus three equals six. Therefore, any ‘authentic Buddhism’ that relies on this interpretation of anicca is necessarily flawed — it cannot be the Dhamma unless we accept that the Buddha was teaching nonsense.

What I meant is that Ven Nanavira views on impermanence are exposition of Suttas, that is to say, he merely elaborates, what the Buddha understood by impermanence.

But of course to practice Right Speech is a very good idea, thanks for reminding me about that. :blush:

2 Likes

….. as per AN3.47:

"Bhikkhus, there are these three characteristics that define the conditioned.
.
What three? An arising is seen, a vanishing is seen, and its alteration while it persists is seen. These are the three characteristics that define the conditioned.

Universal impermanence would be the words arising and vanishing, natural for anything existing.

Pure flux would be the word alteration, as it’s the nature of anything impermanent.

…..authentic Buddhism would naturally leans and aligns towards the truth of the 1NT & 2NT.

2 Likes