Rationale for Relative Ranking of four types

Not in Buddhism. “Beings are heir to their kamma.” Dhp
No free passes by outside authorities.

Also, not everything that happens to us is due to kamma – the Buddha said some illnesses and natural events happen because: life in the conditional world.

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Once arahants attained, they have no need for desire to cease. Cessation will come as a law of nature.

They also have no desire to continue, but those who have a sense of self does wishes to continue.

Since there’s no self anyway, who cares what happens to the 5 aggregates after death?

Only those with a sense of self cares to want it to continue.

SN28.4

Reverend, with the giving up of pleasure and pain, and the ending of former happiness and sadness, I entered and remained in the fourth absorption, without pleasure or pain, with pure equanimity and mindfulness. But it didn’t occur to me: ‘I am entering the fourth absorption’ or ‘I have entered the fourth absorption’ or ‘I am emerging from the fourth absorption’.”

“That must be because Venerable Sāriputta has long ago totally eradicated I-making, mine-making, and the underlying tendency to conceit. That’s why it didn’t occur to you: ‘I am entering the fourth absorption’ or ‘I have entered the fourth absorption’ or ‘I am emerging from the fourth absorption’.”

As mentioned in SN1.25, it is a mere convention to indicate that it is his lifestream, connected by kamma, ignorance to the past, and not other people’s past lives that he is recalling.

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A post was merged into an existing topic: Relative ranking of the four types of persons

Self is a concept by which we measure our pain. I’ll say it again, self is a concept by which we measure our pain.” :heart: :studio_microphone: :musical_note:

I accept that the Buddha is free from the fetter of me, mine, my self making. In a unpurified mind this me, mine, my self making happens compulsively, not per choice. It is just an ingrained habit to due so.
In a Buddha this is gone. So, he has the freedom to deal in a skillful way with body and mind. Just what is functional for his welbeing in this very life.

Buddha teaches asankhata and that has no characteristic to cease. But all that can cease, will cease at the death of an arahant.

By the way, i believe it is impossible to be beyond doubt that there is nothing that cannot cease.I do not see how one can have certainty on this. How?
For example, Buddha could not discover a beginning of lifestreams…and?Based upon this, can we be sure there was no beginning? How and Why?

Or those with a good heart, those who, like the Buddha, do not care they have to suffer. They care for others welbeing and want to guide them to the Truth, like the Buddha did.
Sometimes it is said that this Buddha was very special because he decided to be reborn on Earth in a dark time.

I do not know this is true but it is a nice idea.

Buddha was special. Thank you for that clarification, Green.

Though, what do you think is meant by “no Self”? And what are you seeking in Nibbana? Anatta clearly points to Sunyata, as they are interrelated. Everything is Empty, because it doesn’t possess a Self-nature.

It isn’t merely meant by grasping or clinging, or not-accepting impermanence. This “Self-view” is not only conceit either. It is all those things, but Buddha points to the very nature of Reality with no-Self or Anatta. Reality is devoid of real Ego or anything that can be pinpointed as solid existence or non-existentce. In the Lotus Sutra the Buddha is praised as neither existing nor non-existing. There is no fixed state of the Self, the Ego, Mind, or Soul. There are extensively infinite dynamics to everything. So does it mean just because the soccer ball is Empty, does it mean that it’s not there? Actually, it’s more of a sense of neither there nor not there, that is the gift that Dependant Origination Teaches us, we are meant to observe, then learn, then make decisions instead of grasping to a Self which we should not do. But not grasping to a Self or Soul means our potential is infinite, we can become any great liberated One we can imagine, and therefore I think such is the hope of Buddhahood.

I can relate to Buddha’s Awakening to the Truth of suffering. It was a huge shock for him. For me too. He felt unprotected, unsafe since that moment. I too.

What is reliable in this world of conditions? All can so unexpactly and suddenly change. Who cannot be scared who sees this? Who cannot become anxious seeing people laying in their beds, sick, in pains, uncomfortble, reduced to bones with some skinn, and knowing to be of the same nature?

Buddha felt really troubled by all this. His heart was jumping in his chest. Never at ease. And who’s heart can be peaceful, when seeing all this?
Buddha was so brave too directly see this monster in the mouth. Many people flee for the Truth of suffering, hide, or just ignore it, or find some attitude to continue life as one always did.
The most amazing of the Buddha is that it motivated him to find safety, protection, refuge, the island, the other shore.

From the start of his search the Buddha realised that his search would be meaningless if he would search fo r something liable to cease, conditionally arising, constructed and liable to des-integrate.
From the start he knew there is no protection, safety, refuge in anything conditioned. What is build up will break down. What is born will die. What has arisen will cease. He knew this. This is what he deeply realised when he reflected on the nature of sankhata, conditioning. It is dukkha. Not reliable, not trustworhty.

This is also why he immediateley understood that even the highest jhana of his teachers were within conditioned existence, liable to cease, not really worth seeing as refuge, protection, home. Home is what he according the sutta’s really sought.

To make a long story short :blush: …he found home, the stable, the not-desintegrating, the Truth, the amazing, refuge. He called his teaching a Path to Asankhata (SN43), a Path to that what is not liable to arise, cease and change. It has all characteristic to be a real refuge, stable, constant, not-desintegrating. His heart opened. He found the most deepest ease and peace possible. He found what he sought.
His task was done. He had transcended this world of conditionings.

What we want is to live with eyes fully open, fully aware of suffering, of the imperfections of life, the corruptions etc. We do not want to denie suffering and we do not want to denie life is rough, extremely challenging. At the same time the heart does never give up on life. It will always seek a way to honour the holiness/wholeness of life. And that IS the holy life. The holy life is never about ceasing at a final death without anything remaining. That is the ego-life, not the holy life. The whole point of all the teachings is that they enable us to not give up on life. That is the goal of the holy life.

I know that probably a lot here read this and judge…o"h, oh this Green is very attached to life, even more foolish then i already thought…whatever. For my self i have seen that the heart is not able to see life as a problem. That is because the heart is pure. Only impure vision can give rise to the desire to cease and see life as a problem.

Nicely said. It is easing for me to read your words.

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Yes Green, I see your Metta towards Nibbana is honest and true. May you achieve Nibbana and full Awakening! A certain fruit of Enlightenment is the end of suffering. I think for those who want all to cease, all will cease, I have Meditated on that, and for those who wish to Transcend after Parinibbana, may there be something for them as well! The extinguishment of a Fully Awakened One is deeply personal, and we may guide others along the Path, and help them reach the Other Shore. However, in many instances it’s best we don’t pick someone else’s Path, but we should instead find out own. You have so much figured out already. Namaste.

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I think this is a very healthy and true perspective. Saṁsara is without a discernible beginning and with no reason to end, unless the conditions aren’t met. There’s a way to understand Buddha’s message supporting both the view that their personal experiences will cease without remainder, and also that for those who wish to dwell in Brahma realms and beyond, perhaps being Buddhas themselves eternally, that’s also possible as well.

However, without the possibility of the first, the second one becomes a prison. So, it’s about choices. It’s completely incompassionate to deny a soul who seeks the without remainder extinguishment. Nor does it make sense to deny that there’s rebirth and there exists states of being of great bliss and love. Buddha talks about both those things. It’s up to our personal kamma and intentions.

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Ehhhh? Did you mean it’d be incompassionate to deny an !ahem! impersonal process !ahem! who so seeks? My turn for a little drilling :joy: :pray:

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I don’t get to use conventional speech now, am I? :man_shrugging: :sweat_smile:

Your license has been revoked mister. :joy: :pray:

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Arrr…

Better? :smiley:

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You sound like swedish chef now :joy: :pray:

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Think of the Answer is that there is no answer. A Soul in that there is no Soul. And a self in that there is no self. Existence in that there is no existence. No reality, no coming, no going. Be strong, Emptiness means we have to Love all of these things despite them not being there. The real extreme is a lack of Compassion. When you can learn to Love a reality that isn’t even there, you may find where the Buddha is.

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