Rebirth, rebirth, rebirth

Discussion
106

Here’s a more eloquent expression of I was thinking of above when I was skeptical of using science as a guide to awakening.

George Ellis: George Ellis on Emergence & Downward Causation | Why are we here?

When they say the universe is meaningless, the hidden agenda is they are saying, ‘We choose to ignore all of the data from human life, human history, from the great literature, the great art, all the rest of it. We choose to say that that has nothing to tell you about life and the universe, because we think the only evidence that matters is the matter that the hard science can tell you.’ They’re arriving at that position by ignoring all of the data they find inconvenient.
…
And, of course, with these people, they either live a totally bipolar life where they have these theories over there, and then they go to their family and say, ‘Hello’, and life is all meaningful, and they pat the dog and play with the child, and all the rest of this. Or they don’t, in which case their home life must be bloody hell.

[George Ellis 's career ranged from cosmology (with Stephen Hawking) and mathematics to the emergence of complexity and the role of top-down causation in evolution. He is a Quaker, and his work includes the book: On The Moral Nature of the Universe.]

Of course, he’s mostly thinking of his Physics colleagues in the above quote, but I think that exactly the same criticism applies to the idea that we’ll understand consciousness, happiness, etc, if we just do enough EEG and MRI scans of brains.

I take Bhante @Brahmali’s point that where science and Dhamma overlap, they should be consistent. However, apart from the problem that science is, by design, tentative and subject to change, it’s very difficult (at the present time) to even conceive of how to measure the ultimate results of Dhamma practice.

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:grin: Heh, heh…

A couple of things come to mind here:

  1. The notion that a cause does not have to immediately follow a result - the result is on it’s way, but not necessarily as soon as the cause is put into place.

I like to imagine a pendulum suspended in the air, stationary and still. I take it in both hands and pull back and let go. I know it’s going to come back to me. The cause for this result - it coming back to me - is that I grasped it and pulled it back. The result, of it coming back towards me to pretty much the same point in space that I let it go from is going to happen; just not as soon as I let it go. The kamma/action/cause of my letting go from that point in space, doesn’t give me an immediate return/result back to that point; it first has to go through a particular trajectory in space, then make it’s return journey before I can experience the result of its arrival back to me.

There is a difference between Nibbana and Parinibbana. Nibbana is what was experienced under the Bodhi Tree, Parinibbana is what happened at Kusinara. Nibbana was the cause, if you like, Parinibbana was the eventual (not immediate - in the Buddha’s case) result of that cause.

Though Parinibbana can follow immediately after Nibbana too. There’s not a lot of doing/movement/sankharas in the Arahant, because a lot - if not all - movement in the mind is caused by kilesas/hindrances. So if there’s no external impetus motivating them to hang out in their life, the internal process will just continue with the “wind-down” and there’ll be a Parinibbana sooner rather than later.

  1. Pari means full/complete. Thus Parinibbana is the completion/fulfillment of a process that began with Nibbana.

At Nibbana, all the mental defilements that are causing problems cease: the three kilesas; the craving to be, to not be and to be reborn. Thus seeds of future being and birth are cut off forever. With the cessation of the kilesas and the cessation of mental suffering, the Arahant at this point is experiencing enormous bliss.

Her mental suffering is done with for the rest of her life. She can easily access deep meditation states because the kilesas/hindrances are no longer around; her mind is in her own control, it’s constantly and powerfully mindful. She’s not too phased by what others do or say. She’s highly functional and incredibly compassionate, soft, gentle, confident in her assertions about Dhamma, unafraid and wise. She gives off a strong vibe of peace and kindness and ease; people want to be around her and hang out with her because of this. Just observing her becomes a teaching. Yet while she may be a living embodiment of Dependent Cessation and her understanding of the Dhamma is that of an expert, she isn’t omniscient and she can still make mistakes in terms of her knowledge about worldly matters. Moreover, she still has to deal with her bodily suffering.

At Parinibbana, the fact that she has already experienced and been through Nibbana has set up a cause which leads to the cessation of all other mental activity, even the wholesome and neutral ones (the unwholesome ones having been dispensed with already - at Nibbana and throughout her journey from Stream Enterer to Arahant). Her body also ceases at Parinibbana and there is no further impetus/craving/drive, for her consciousness to move towards or be drawn to another body or life of any kind - there’s no desire for her “to be” anymore, she’s completely at peace. As her body expires, her mental processes wind down fully.

That’s truly wonderful!! Much Mudita for that!! :heartbeat: :hugs: :heartpulse:

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Yes, and this shows the problem with relying on the Jātakas for your understanding of the Dhamma. This is really a popular sort of literature. I often speak to people with a background from Buddhist cultures, and often all they know about the “Dhamma” is stories of the Jātaka type. In fact, they don’t know very much Dhamma at all. It really is a big problem.

I think this is exactly what does not happen. Seeing past lives is dreadful for anyone. It’s Groundhog Day, but with an added sinister twist of unpleasant rebirths. I don’t think anyone wants to live in that sort of world.

Last but not least, I really appreciate your generosity of spirit.

Yes, we probably are. This could be nuanced further, but I will leave it at that for now. Regardless of the views we hold, I must say it is a great pleasure to meet so many good Buddhists here on SuttaCentral. I wish you the very best for your practice.

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Not everyone ascribes to the early Buddhist take on rebirth. The Mahayana and Hindus have a more upbeat view. They say it is bewildering and a burden for wordlings but for wisdom beings: they are not bewildered by moving into different lives. The Bhagavad Gita says it’s just like changing old and worn-out clothing for new ones. The wise are not bewildered by such a change.

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@Brahmali, thank you for starting this thread, and the Dhamma in your posts.

I would like to utilize Ajhan Sujato’s TV simile here. If I were to borrow it (my apologies) :

Imagine a little boy grows up inside a box (leaving out who put him there for now!) and the walls, floors and ceilings are high definition TV screens- he believes this world is real because he doesn’t know anything else (ignorance avijja). One fine day he is handed a magnifying glass and he comes in really close and takes a look at pixels/dots (5 aggregates) on the TV screen. He sees a bundle of blue, red and green in each dot- his world is destroyed just then. He thought the images were real, but turns it, it is just an illusion that was created by the pixelated dots. These dots are arising and passing away in such great rapidity (anicca) that it creates the illusion of a continuous flow (nicca)- whereas the reality is snapshots as mentioned by @daverupa. Each arising is completely a new arising- each passing away is completely and utter ‘death’. He also realises all people that he thought existed (Self-view, sakkaya ditti))saw were only pixels (not-self, anatta) on a screen, much like Ven Katukurunde Nanananda’s film reel analogy. There is nothing in between each flickering pixel, just like there’s nothing in between each picture frame in the film reel. Investigating further he realises that, however, something causes these dots to arise- that is, something causes them to arise- something is present that makes them come into being. That is the TV screen and the (for sake of simplicity) the electricity and a TV signal and so on… (DO, -12 links). While they pass away, they do not pass away for ever, but keep re-arising- hence perpetuating the illusion. Having seen the trap- or the illusion- it is becoming unbearable (much like actually seeing past lives, not just fantasizing about it) -like a fraudster who has been discovered, trying to trick you again repeatedly using the same trick which was discovered! To say it in another way- it ‘gets old fast’. i.e. it is Unsatisfactory- the illusion is seen as dukkha. To continue watching again and again, this rebecoming, this rebirth, is maddening. There is no ‘I’, but ‘I’ have been deceived! Then there is repulsion (nibbida). Repulsion away from the never ending dots. Each arising and passing away- using an example from the EBTs- like a cow which has been skinned, thrown into a lake, and fish biting- each bite or contact, is like nibbida. The mind wants it to stop- but also knows it is not real- only an illusion. It becomes dispassionate about experiencing any more pixels. It sees the ignorance of doing so and see that the pixels have no inherent value (as mentioned in the SN22.95). The mind then naturally turns away from the phenomena of arising and passing away, into the cool experience of emptiness. This is cessation (nirodha). Here that smoothness of the analogy ends, except to say grossly if he destroyed the TV (the causes) there would be cessation of the dots. What has this got to do with rebirth?

In this experience, which is experienced by thousands of meditators, in their vipassana meditation- there is no Self, there is no other, there is no coming or going, there is nothing reborn, there in no rebirth (in the gross sense of it)…there isn’t even death. Every moment then becomes rebirth (or death - like I believe Bhikkhu Buddhadasa mentions- though I’m not very familiar with his teachings) and every moment is death (not of a Self though). It is like a flame- only a flame is shorthand for a series of flames that replace each other with great rapidity, when burning wax molecules up in the air. At this level of ultimate reality, it can be said whatever we identify as a being is born and dying continuously. To stop rebirth is to stop this birth and death. To experiencing this stopping, is to experience Nibbana.

The stream entrant experiences Nibbana for the first time with the arising of Dhamma eye. He experiences it again, if they have the ability to attain easily into jhana, again in phalasamapatti. Here the dots (aggregates) stop arising for an extended period -not just a glimpse. Consciousness itself ceases (though not unconscious in the normal sense of the word- this is a meditative state) and nothing is perceived. Meditators make the intention to resume being conscious after some time (sankhara give rise to consciousness). This is close to death. It is not quite because the causes of life still persist, in the form of a body, working sense organs etc. and will eventually wake the person up. I am reminded of the parallel with the attainment of cessation (nirodhasamapatti) where one monk was though to be dead and was almost cremated. When an arahanth it seems that some were able to intentionally enter parinibbana like the Buddha was able to (the ability to enter Arahanth phalasamapatti, maybe relevant to this). The meditator when emerging from such states, experiences rebirth. They come ‘back’ to (who comes back is a question) a different body (body has since changed) and people they knew before are not the same- they have changed as has all of the world. How conventional rebirth differs is a matter of degree of the change. For the meditator who has and can reduce home, office, womb all down to the minute arising and passing away of phenomena, the brightness of the green part of the pixel vs the darkness of the blue part of the pixel isn’t particularly significant any further. The change inherent in the process of EBT Vipassana is life changing. One begins to see that this stream was truly timeless, and the effort it takes to stop it cannot come about by chance. It would like trying to stop a strong flowing of lava. It can only stop when it meets the cool sea (of Nibbana). One also comes to see, by inference, that if it wasn’t challenged now, it would continue onwards- possibly for lives to come and cause suffering for ever. To arrive at this level of appreciation some assumptions and possibly misconception need to be understood:

  1. The Buddha didn’t say ‘come to me, and I will show you rebirth and all you past lives’.
  2. Assuming only the material exists, and the spiritual or ultimate doesn’t. Only conventional physics is true.
  3. Dismissive nature or not even wanting to explore rebirth research before coming to the conclusion that it doesn’t exist.

The Buddha said those who approach the Dhamma with a closed mind only wanting to criticise it, will never be able to understand it (sutta?). To read what the Buddha said and to understand him, requires some degree of intelligence and then on, faith, because of what he has said so far. Those with meagre quantities of such virtues will find the going hard- maybe they will do better face to face with a bhikkhu they have regard for, rather than an online forum. The ability to think ‘outside the box’, is not a gift everyone posses. While followers of the Buddha may try their hardest, they are not in any way indebted to enlighten and drag people kicking and screaming to Nibbana. Intellectual and emotional appreciation of the teachings will take you further than debate any day. Newcomers should seek to approach the wise, and learn from them; not the wise bending backwards to appease the masses. The Dhamma is said to be unpopular among the populace -and so it will be partly because of the leaps required. It probably will not be for everybody!

with metta

ps- even if someone were to see their past lives, they might still have doubts because of recovered memory etc. stories from psychology ie there is no end to scepticism. I personally found Dr. Ian Stephenson’s and the more recent research quite compelling, if someone were to give it a chance. I think going through the rebirth stories from Youtube is not bad thing- it is difficult to say what will work for any given person, so keep and open mind and investigate, is what I would say.

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Well, good thing for me I’ve never seen them. It’s hard enough meditating with the hindrances I have. I don’t know how I would handle it with all that terror hanging over my head. :slight_smile:

But in all seriousness, this just brings us back to the question of ascertaining the reality of rebirth, or ascertaining even some significant degree of probability for rebirth. Some people have mentioned the Pascal’s Wager type of argument they apply to the Buddhist teachings, a version of which can be found in the suttas. But those who are familiar with the philosophical discussion of that style of argument know that it depends crucially on probability.

Suppose a man runs into your town and says, “A plague of ravenous beasts is coming! It’s going to be horrible! Once they get hold of you they just nibble and chew on you forever. So you had better get to work right now on escaping from this town as quickly as possible, because you don’t want the beasts to get you!”

It would not be rational at all to drop everything and begin to work on escaping from your town, not unless you have reason to believe that there is some intellectual merit in this man’s wild claims. And the degree to which you would let these claims influence your behavior would depend on the degree of evidence you have for thinking he is right. If you think there a 1 in 10 probability he is right, his words should have a weightier impact than if you think he only has a 1 in 10,000 chance of being right.

So, if people are telling me that I am headed for an interminable future of misery, unless I undertake a practice whose sole aim is to bring an end to my ongoing existence so I don’t have to face that misery, and that I also can’t develop the motivation to undertake this practice unless I first squeeze and torture my belief system into a dark, terrified pessimism, and convince myself that this frightening tale is true, then I am going to need quite a bit of evidence before embarking on this path of tortuous self-brainwashing.

Frankly, this kind of evidence has not been offered. The kinds of anecdotes that have been presented are so flimsy, and so subject to multiple interpretations and alternative explanations, that I really don’t think a rational and objective person would be persuaded by them. And so that leaves me with the conclusion that these beliefs about the interminable rounds of rebirth are simply based on faith: the Buddha appears to have said they are true, and some are disposed by faith to accept everything the Buddha strongly believed.

But there are many different teachings and perspectives that can be found in the suttas, and there is another approach to the teachings rooted in a more optimistic and experimental attitude. There are plenty of passages in the suttas that point to the goal of the path being the attainment of the most perfect happiness, in this very life, and also to the idea that one can gradually increase one’s happiness, even if one does not attain the goal, by following the path. Many people around the world are drawn to images of a Buddha smiling peacefully and blissfully, with eyes partially closed. And they think: “I want that!” The images suggests a path to inner peace and delightful happiness that can be achieved by detaching oneself somewhat from the world, and dropping the burden of carrying it around everywhere. If your thoughts of the past are filled with grief, and thoughts of the future are filled with terror, and thoughts of the present are filled with struggle and competition and hate and lust, just stop.

You shouldn’t chase after the past
or place expectations on the future.
What is past
is left behind.
The future
is as yet unreached.
Whatever quality is present
you clearly see right there,
right there.
Not taken in,
unshaken,
that’s how you develop the heart.
Ardently doing
what should be done today,
for — who knows? — tomorrow
death.
There is no bargaining
with Mortality & his mighty horde.

Whoever lives thus ardently,
relentlessly
both day & night,
has truly had an auspicious day:
so says the Peaceful Sage.

If people are meditating away to relieve their fear and anxiety, and to work toward the bliss of nibbana, and others are cheerfully giving to others, and renouncing violence, lust, killing and hatred, because they have realized from their own experience that this is actually the path to greater happiness, then why cloud all that with induced night terrors about horrible future lives, especially when no one really has much reason to believe in those horrible future lives.

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especially when no one really has much reason to believe in those horrible future lives.

No reason apart from the Buddha’s teachings, perhaps. But even that is not entirely true, because there are many, many first person testimonials out there that would point to the reality of rebirth.

In actual fact, I think my strong belief in rebirth is partly based on personal experiences I have had which are impossible to explain from the perspective of materialism.

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At Savatthi. There the Blessed One said: "From an inconstruable beginning comes transmigration. A beginning point is not evident, though beings hindered by ignorance and fettered by craving are transmigrating & wandering on. When you see someone who has fallen on hard times, overwhelmed with hard times, you should conclude: ‘We, too, have experienced just this sort of thing in the course of that long, long time.’
.
“Why is that? From an inconstruable beginning comes transmigration. A beginning point is not evident, though beings hindered by ignorance and fettered by craving are transmigrating & wandering on. Long have you thus experienced stress, experienced pain, experienced loss, swelling the cemeteries — enough to become disenchanted with all fabricated things, enough to become dispassionate, enough to be released.” SN15.11.

There are more suttas where the Buddha talks of literal rebirth.

With metta

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I wonder how many had a faith or intuition toward rebirth which preceded interest in the Buddha’s teaching.

Does the Buddha’s teaching correlate with something in us or do we shape ourselves to correlate with the Buddha’s teaching?

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Interesting question - For myself, I can definitely say that I was inclined to believe in life after death before becoming seriously interested in Buddhism.

I did go through a phase of quasi-nihilistic materialism as I was reading Harris, Dennet, Dawkins, Hitchens etc…looking back, I think I bought in to the idea that these guys were the real smart ones, and unless I took on their worldview I would appear to the world as an obvious imbecile. Anyway, it was a failed project. I found Buddhism and reverted to the beliefs of a simpleton :slight_smile:

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Back in my college days I was all into the “New Atheist” craze. I was arrogant and thought all theists were dumb. I’m glad I got out of that cult!:rofl:

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I came to Buddhism more through a moral path. Although I had often previously read some serious Buddhist philosophy, and a handful of popular dharma books, and had even meditated off and on for years, following the instructions of the insight meditation craze, this Buddhist stuff was just one of several things I was interested in.

Then one day, after a few weeks of some rancorous and painful political arguments that made be miserable, uptight, demoralized and exhausted, I read these famous lines in the Dhammapada:

“He abused me, he struck me, he overpowered me, he robbed me.” Those who harbor such thoughts do not still their hatred.

“He abused me, he struck me, he overpowered me, he robbed me.” Those who do not harbor such thoughts still their hatred.

Hatred is never appeased by hatred in this world. By non-hatred alone is hatred appeased. This is a law eternal.

And for whatever reason, on that occasion, I decided that these lines were not just nice sentiments that were sort of true, but were rather expressions of something that is profoundly true. And that made me think about the Buddhist notion of kamma in a different way, and decide that there were actually profound and subtle connections between one’s own intentions and well-being and the well-being of others. It wasn’t just that “what comes around goes around.” It was rather that I realized there is something deep inside all of us that doesn’t want to injure, and that we always injure ourselves when we deliberately injure others. But that primordial motive toward peacefulness is constantly disrupted by a social and animal world we are bound to through our passions, a world that refuses to accept peace, and demands territoriality and aggression and knives and claws.

So after that, I tried meditating again, and it was completely different. Instead of thinking that the point was just to observe the mind intricately, and build up a pile of philosophical and psychological “insights” while maybe relaxing a bit, I understood that the whole point was to cultivate the skill of release, or letting go. It was a heart thing; not a mind thing. And I then saw that all of that stuff in the traditional texts about jhanas and deepening concentration and seclusion, was not just some weird monkish “extra”, but was the whole point. It also dawned on me that the movement of the heart toward freedom and openness, and away from the grasping, attached kind of “love”, was in some way the same movement as the movement toward kindness peace and real love, or metta.

I never had any belief in an afterlife before reading all the traditional texts, and have never had any inclination to adopt one after reading them. That was never the part of the Buddha’s teaching that seemed important to me.

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Yes, the whole Anamatagga Saṃyutta, where that sutta you quoted is from is about rebirth. And as Ven. Brahmali talked about above, the Buddha teaches that it is indeed sinister and dreadful. Some of the similes he uses are brutal and shocking, e.g.

Now on that occasion the Blessed One was dwelling in Rajagaha, in the Bamboo Grove. Then thirty monks from Pava — all wilderness dwellers, all alms-goers, all triple-robe wearers, all still with fetters — went to the Blessed One and, on arrival, having bowed down to him, sat to one side.

Then the thought occurred to the Blessed One, “These thirty monks from Pava… are all still with fetters. What if I were to teach them the Dhamma in such a way that in this very sitting their minds, through lack of clinging, would be released from fermentations?”

So he addressed the monks: “Monks.”

“Yes, lord,” the monks responded.

The Blessed One said, “From an inconceivable beginning comes transmigration. A beginning point is not evident, though beings hindered by ignorance and fettered by craving are transmigrating & wandering on. What do you think, monks? Which is greater, the blood you have shed from having your heads cut off while transmigrating & wandering this long, long time, or the water in the four great oceans?”

“As we understand the Dhamma taught to us by the Blessed One, this is the greater: the blood we have shed from having our heads cut off while transmigrating & wandering this long, long time, not the water in the four great oceans.”

"Excellent, monks. Excellent. It is excellent that you thus understand the Dhamma taught by me.

"This is the greater: the blood you have shed from having your heads cut off while transmigrating & wandering this long, long time, not the water in the four great oceans.

"The blood you have shed when, being cows, you had your cow-heads cut off: Long has this been greater than the water in the four great oceans.

"The blood you have shed when, being water buffaloes, you had your water buffalo-heads cut off… when, being rams, you had your ram-heads cut off… when, being goats, you had your goat-heads cut off… when, being deer, you had your deer-heads cut off… when, being chickens, you had your chicken-heads cut off… when, being pigs, you had your pig-heads cut off: Long has this been greater than the water in the four great oceans.

"The blood you have shed when, arrested as thieves plundering villages, you had your heads cut off… when, arrested as highway thieves, you had your heads cut off… when, arrested as adulterers, you had your heads cut off: Long has this been greater than the water in the four great oceans.

“Why is that? From an inconceivable beginning comes transmigration. A beginning point is not evident, though beings hindered by ignorance and fettered by craving are transmigrating & wandering on. Long have you thus experienced stress, experienced pain, experienced loss, swelling the cemeteries — enough to become disenchanted with all fabrications, enough to become dispassionate, enough to be released.”

That is what the Blessed One said. Gratified, the monks delighted in the Blessed One’s words. And while this explanation was being given, the minds of the thirty monks from Pava — through lack of clinging — were released from fermentations.
-SN 15.13

You’ll notice these monks attained arahantship just upon hearing this, attesting to the power of the teaching of rebirth.

Honestly, the vast majority of us, including monks/nuns (and myself for the record), don’t take the teaching on rebirth seriously enough IMO. For if we did, we would have a true sense of samvega and would be practicing as though our hair were on fire (AN 8.74).

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@DKervick
While I’m not really interested in getting involved in this discussion, and we may not share the same views about rebirth, I just wanted to let you know that I always very much appreciate your kind, thoughtful and well-written posts.

Same with many others here, and I’ve appreciated skimming through this discussion.

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A few kind words for brother-death on the road to nowhere:

Death is as magical as it gets - the ultimate disappearing trick!

There is no problem with dying - it may be the best thing that ever happens to us? I am ‘open’ to that mystery - why not?

There is a problem with pain - particularly if it is prolonged and pointless. Where there is pain we act with kindness and compassion.

Paradoxically, without dukkha we would have no need for compassion and our search for freedom would go nowhere. Well, I guess it does anyway?

There is an issue with how we live - which will have an impact on how we die? We are not going to die well if we are worried about coming back or not - or how many times this might happen?

There is no problem with being killed - it’s just a flesh-wound. It might be a good ‘vipaka’ (result) to be killed while helping others etc. One that leads to wonderful and exhalted states of being or liberation - if there is a complete letting go. Of course, harming oneself - or others - intentionally, should be avoided if possible.

Clearly, if we view this fathom-long body as a ‘self’ or a personal possession then when it’s recycling time we are going to prevaricate - start an argument we cannot win. This fuss and bother won’t make the slightest difference to the ultimate outcome.

This body is fertilizer waiting to happen! It is also a precious tool we can use for awakening. The former and the latter are equally true and interdependent. We need to live in the light of these truths in order to breathe freely - without worry or regret.

Our ‘kamma’ can be purified! If this was not the case, we could never finish with the cycle of rebecoming. Whenever and wherever we let-go - with awareness and a loving heart - we are in the best place we can possibly find ourselves.

To much belly-aching about the miseries of cyclic existence without a proper balance of mind - would lead to neuroses and unnecessary tension. It may keep us locked into a particular form of life and reify a sense of self as a renunciate.

This might lead to a continuity of a particular form of practice but it is no guarantee of awakening. It could be a help or a hindrance - this would depend on the disposition and realisation of the practitioner?

We cannot think ourselves into letting-go - that is not the way it happens in the heart - in contrast to the head.

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If you don’t mind asking , have you experience any kind of enduring sicknesses accompanying excruciating pains ? Not months but 10 , 20 years !

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Yes, pain is a problem but death can be a blessing - if we die without craving or aversion then death is a doorway to liberation. When it comes to pain - if it is pointless and prolonged - we can embrace death without hesitation. I would consider that an act of kindness. We don’t need to see things the same way - all good!

I know it can be hard. We all know sorrow and pain. We can hold it - and comfort it - like we would hold and comfort a crying baby. We won’t demand anything of the baby but will do everything we can to show our love and concern. We can love and honour the pain of others - and our own pain - in this way. An opportunity to love and care on the way to awakening - the not-dukkha. May you be liberated! :blush:

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From the perspective of a non-religious person, religious people simply do not believe in death at all. It doesn’t happen.

It’s all very interesting, how different ideologies deal with death.

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The physical body certainly dies, its chemical processes cease and the flesh falls apart with the bones remaining after a while. The question is what becomes of one’s phenomenal existence, ego, mind or soul. An apparently substantial self in life might crave for continued existence while alive, and that craving might generate a belief/hope in its continuance after physical death. All religions as far as I know acknowledge the death of the body, how can one deny it? The continuance or extinction of a soul is the religious question, at least for the semitic religions.

But what if the ‘self/soul’ is a non-physical insubstantial process of phenomenal experiences that happen to and animate a physical body, rather than a substantia, an essence, or eternal soul? Does this impersonal and apparently objective phenomenal process continue after physical death? The being dies but impersonal phenomena cycle onwards?

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The soul as an immaterial spirit in a physical body in Christianity may have been borrowed from the Greek philosophical tradition - probably Aristotle. The Catholic theologian ‘Thomas Aquinas’ may be responsible for it being spelled-out in the mediaeval Roman Catholic Church. The earlier theology involves the ‘resurrection’ of the physical body after death. These bodies are then made eternal - they are imperishable. Muslims and Christians believe in this ‘resurrection’ theory.

The original Judaic teachings don’t say anything about an after-life. In their teachings God had big plans for humanity in the Garden of Eden but his first human female creation had a forbidden conversation with a talking snake and everything went down-hill.

Traditional Christian theology tells us Jesus came to Earth to sort out the problem the first human female created by taking the advice of the talking snake. The snake told her to eat an apple and God was not impressed with her choice of fruit.

If she had eaten a pear or a few grapes everything would have been fine - such is life! The moral of the story: be careful when it comes to your diet and love God as much as you can - and people as well.

The latest Pope issued a directive perhaps at the behest of other high ranking Catholics that the ‘faithful’ are not to have their ashes scattered after cremation. Instead, they should be kept together in one receptacle. This is to aid in the reconstitution of the physical body when the second coming takes place. Ashes spread all over the place makes for a more difficult ‘resurrection’ process.

In Hinduism we find more etheric soul-theories. The Sanskrit word for an individual spirit is ‘Jiva’ and the universal soul is the Atman.

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