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Rebirth & reincarnation in the Brahman Vedas

Chapter 7 of the SN seems to bring the same results & impression. Here, there is no mention by Brahmans about rebirth or reincarnation, apart from attaining Brahma (brahmapattiyā).

The brahman of the Bharadvaja clan… went to the Blessed One and, on arrival, addressed him in verse:

You live alone in the forest
with rapturous mind.

I suppose it’s in longing
for the three heavens unexcelled (tidivaṃ anuttaraṃ),
in the company of the ruling lord of the worlds,
that, staying here in the wilderness, desolate,
you practice austerities
for attaining Brahma (brahmapattiyā).

SN 7.18

:seedling:

At that time the brahman Sangaarava was living there, a “purity-by-water” man who believed in purification by water… It is like this, good Gotama. The evil deeds that I do in the day I cause to be borne away in the evening, and the evil deeds that I do in the night I cause to be borne away in the morning. That is the benefit I expect from [this practice.] SN 7.21

:seedling:

Thank you Dhammanando. This is contrary what is in Wikipedia in terms of the Bràhmanas (so I best follow that up). I have not noticed mention of ‘Upanishads’ in the Pali suttas. Thus, at first glance, the historical chronology below may possibly be questionable, at least in terms of kammic inheritance. I will read the link more thoroughly at a later time.

There are virtually no references to rebirth or to an ethical notion of karma in the Vedas or in the Bràhmanas, the oldest texts belonging to the Hindu tradition. The first significant references appear in an early Upanishad, the Brhadàranyaka Upanisad, probably composed sometime before the sixth century b.c.e., followed by the Chàndogya and the Kausítaki. A hundred years or more later these theories appear in full bloom in the so-called heterodox religions— particularly in Buddhism and Jainism—that have karma and rebirth at the center of their eschatological thinking.

Here is some literature:

Bodewitz, H. W. (1999). Yonder world in the Atharvaveda. Indo-Iranian Journal, 42(2), 107-120.

Jurewicz, J. (2008). Rebirth Eschatology in the Ṛgveda: In Search for Roots of Transmigration. Indologica Taurinensia, 34, 183-210.

Shushan, G. (Ed.). (2009). Conceptions of the afterlife in early civilizations: universalism, constructivism and near-death experience (Vol. 6). A&C Black.

Shushan, G. (2011). Afterlife Conceptions in the Vedas. Religion Compass, 5(6), 202-213.

Shushan starts his article summary with:

What can we generalize about Vedic afterlife conceptions? Some thematic, structural elements found throughout the texts include: ascent and descent to upper and lower realms; existence in non-physical states; dissolution into component parts which go to different places; encounters with deities and ancestors; barriers, obstacles, perils and demons of various kinds; an afterlife fate determined by moral, religious or spiritual merit; and identification of the deceased with various deities, celestial bodies, seasons, natural phenomena, etc., indicating a transcendental, godlike state.

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Thank you Raivo. This is also very useful. Again, are Vajnavalkya & Upanishads mentioned in the Pali suttas? I will research these leads. Bhante Sujato writes here:

… a specific doctrine that explains ethical action and its consequences, and appears at a specific time and place. That time was a few generations before the Buddha; the place was the region of Mithila, in between the Sakyan republic and Vesali. This was when the great Upanishadic sage Vajnavalkya flourished. Among many other crucial innovations in the Brahmanical teachings, he is responsible for the earliest clear statements on kamma. At that time, this teaching was an esoteric doctrine. In later years, of course, this compelling doctrine became firmly established in both Buddhism and Jainism, and due in part to their influence, became known throughout Hinduism.

Re the date of the Brihadaranyaka and other early Upanishads, their pre-Buddhist provenance is a long-established conclusion in Indic studies. It is true, a few scholars have recently challenged this. I have reviewed their arguments and found them to be very thin. This was some time ago, so I can’t recall the details off the top of my head. If there are any specifics, bring them to the table and we can have a look. But there are so many aspects of the Brihadaranyaka that seem early – doctrinal development, social/political conditions, settings, language – that I would need some very good reasons for changing my mind.

The following is part of a dialogue in the Brihadarannyaka Upanishad

‘And here there is this verse: “To whatever object a man’s own mind is attached, to that he goes strenuously together with his kamma; and having obtained the end (the last results) of whatever kamma he does here on earth, he returns again from that world (which is the temporary reward of his deed) to this world of kamma.

‘So much for the man who desires. But as to the man who does not desire, who, not desiring, freed from desires, is satisfied in his desires, or desires the Self only, his vital spirits do not depart elsewhere,- being Brahman, he goes to Brahman.

:seedling:

Thank you Gabriel. I better take to care to not overdose. I was also emailed this, for the record: The Ågveda, ‘small scale’ societies and rebirth eschatology: Joanna Jurewicz.

Kind regards :seedling:

Short of having studied the pre-Buddhist Vedas thoroughly, or claiming to be especially knowledgeable, here are some potential leads to add to the above:

As mentioned above (Gabriel 2017-06-05 10:03:16 UTC #9) Johanna Jurewicz is said to be an authority, at least with respect to the RGVeda poetry, which is apparently the earliest layer of written Indic cosmology (which includes theory of human life and death,…). Her major work – Fire and Cognition in the RGVeda (2010) appears to be one of the most comprehensive and detailed analyses of the RGVeda.

In that book, at the conclusion of a section titled “The rebirth cycle in RV 10.14.8”, she writes (p. 319):
The RGVedic evidence attests a belief in the return of the dead to be reborn among their relatives. This means that the main contribution of the Upanisadic thought is not that it introduces the concept of rebirth but that it makes it universal, not restricted to family members and dependent on moral value.

She footnotes that statement with “Cf. Gombrich 1996, Obeyesekere 2002.” Oddly, for such a monumental and meticulous piece of scholarship, with ca. 480 items listed in the Bibliography, the reference to Gombrich 1996 is missing there. Presumably it is Richard F. Gombrich’s How Buddhism Began (1996), which can be freely downloaded. Gombrich attempts to summarize the Upanisadic teachings relevant to the Buddha on pp. 31-32 (in an Ebook version of the 2nd edition of his book (2005) that can be downloaded).

The other reference reads: “Obeyesekere G., 2002, Imagining Karma. Ethical Transformation in Ameridian, Buddhist, and Greek Rebirth. Berkeley, Los Angeles, London: University of California Press.” – same author that Dhammanando mentioned, different work. Jurewicz also lists 4 or 5 works of Bodewitz.

Some here may recognize Johanna’s book as the basis for Linda Blanchard’s Dependent Arising in Context (2012). (This may be the same “Linda” who participates in SuttaCentral discussion occasionally?)

The paper by Jurewicz cited by Gabriel can be found on-line. In the bibliography to the Fire and Cognition book, she lists some 25 of her own works, a couple of those in Engish I’ve downloaded and read. Not being able to find the book itself on the internet (other than a review of it), I corresponded with Linda a couple of years ago about finding the book. She said it’s available in Poland. Last December I did find it on-line, in a Polish book outlet. It was all in Polish, but looked just like any Amazon-type page; clicking on buttons that looked like the usual “add to cart”, “check-out”, enter name, address, credit card etc., it worked. A couple of weeks later the book arrived (cost ca. $30US).

The index to Linda’s book lists a dozen or so references to rebirth. Perhaps most relevant, on page 16:
… The Vedic system was built on the assumption that the rites practiced throughout a lifetime , as well as keeping the gods, ancestors, and the universe nourished, enabled the Sacrificer to nourish his self, his ātman, in the same way – constantly building and perfecting himself and his world, in both the present world and the world he would inhabit after death. The concept was that during the ritual the Sacrificer died (he/his equivalent was what was being sacrificed), he made his way up to his world, and returned to earth a new man – literally (but, to our point of view, figuratively). Over the course of a lifetime of such rituals in which the ātman was perfected, he would “die” and “be reborn” many times…

Btw: Linda’s book is dedicated to, among a couple of others, Professor Richard Gombrich, with whom she has studied.

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actually I’m fortunate to have Joanna as my PhD supervisor!

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Good fortune indeed Gabriel !

Does your area of specialty also relate to investigating relationships between Vedic and Buddhist literature?

Are you yourself in Poland, or does Joanna also work internationally? (She’s so fluent in the English language.)

The theory of “cognitive linguistics” would seem a potentially valuable contribution to the area of “EBT” research. (I’m slowly plowing thru the “Fire and Cognition” book, which is quite weighty; especially interested in how that theory is applied, and might be potentially useful in other realms.)

Btw: Could you confirm for me the correct pronunciation of Joanna’s name? Running it by, a while ago, a couple of friends who are American-born Polish, I was told something like “Jo-HAN -nah” (which is why I mistakenly used “Johanna” above) “’YUR-reh-vitch”.

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(1) Gabriel 2017-06-05 10:03:16 UTC #9
Jurewicz, J. (2008). Rebirth Eschatology in the Ṛgveda: In Search for Roots of Transmigration. Indologica Taurinensia, 34, 183-210.

(2) Deeele 2017-06-05 10:26:13 UTC #11
“… I was also emailed this, for the record: The Ågveda, ‘small scale’ societies and rebirth eschatology: Joanna Jurewicz.”

These two references appear to be the same paper – the text is identical;
(1) spells-out references in the footnotes, and supplies a date of publication (2008);
(2) uses abbreviations and supplies a formal Bibliography, not is not
dated.

Deeele:
As you’ve probably already gathered, this paper, in either form, would appear well-suited for your purposes here. The book by the same author that I brought up, though a bit later (2010), deals with a much larger context. I mentioned it because it would be a factor in “studying the pre-Buddhist Vedas thoroughly.”

Linda Blanchard’s take on it all, however, may interest you (if you’re not already familiar with her book), as it elaborates Jurewicz’s research specifically in terms of the paticca-samuppāda doctrine, which appears to play a central role in the Buddha’s message as radically reinterpreting traditions he was born into.

Good thread !

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Pronouncewiki is great for this. Just scroll down to hear several native speakers pronouncing it.

http://www.pronouncekiwi.com/Joanna

http://www.pronouncekiwi.com/Jurewicz

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Thanks. It does not interest me. I recall discussing these previously somewhere & responded to the negative towards them.

Paticca-samuppāda is a specific cause & effect doctrine, which shares a cause & effect explanation as with many a doctrine. Further, paticca-samuppāda is about the origination or creation of suffering, which shares a cause & effect doctrine as with many creationist myths.

For example, if you explain to a child how elves make toys at the North Pole and reindeer deliver the toys at Xmas with Santa Claus, this is a cause & effect myth but is not necessarily similar to paticca-samuppāda.

In other words, I recall commenting elsewhere my opinion that Blanchard & Jurewicz were way off the mark about paticca-samuppāda, even though they may be experts in Vedic history.

Sorry, while I can empathize with the enthusiasm of Blanchard & Jurewicz, this meditation object of Paticca-samuppāda should not be mistaken for speculative myths from Brahmanism & Judaism.

There is an American monk named Thanissaro Bhikkhu, who has written an internet PDF called ‘Shape of Suffering’. It can simply be googled. This PDF explains the actual reality of Paticca-samuppāda, which has no relationship to any creationist myth but explains what is going on within the minds of homo sapiens every day, every hour, even every minute, yet homo sapiens do not discern it.

In Thailand, there is a phrase: “The birds fly in the sky but do not see the sky; the fish live in the water but do not see the water; similarly, the homo sapiens dwell in paticca-samuppāda but do not see it”.

This was a good thread for myself to learn about the history of reincarnation before Paticca-samuppāda was diminished by being introduced into it. MN 38 explains exactly why Paticca-samuppāda probably has no relevance to this thread. I would suggest you read it with appropriate faith rather than get excited about Blanchard & Jurewicz.

“Bhikkhus, knowing and seeing in this way, would you run back to the past thus: ‘Were we in the past? Were we not in the past? What were we in the past? How were we in the past? Having been what, what did we become in the past?’?”—“No, venerable sir.”—“Knowing and seeing in this way, would you run forward to the future thus: ‘Shall we be in the future? Shall we not be in the future? What shall we be in the future? How shall we be in the future? Having been what, what shall we become in the future?’?”—“No, venerable sir.”—“Knowing and seeing in this way, would you now be inwardly perplexed about the present thus: ‘Am I? Am I not? What am I? How am I? Where has this being come from? Where will it go?’?”—“No, venerable sir.”

“Bhikkhus, knowing and seeing in this way, would you speak thus: ‘The Teacher is respected by us. We speak as we do out of respect for the Teacher’?”—“No, venerable sir.”—“Knowing and seeing in this way, would you speak thus: ‘The Recluse says this, and we speak thus at the bidding of the Recluse’?”—“No, venerable sir.”—“Knowing and seeing in this way, would you acknowledge another teacher?”—“No, venerable sir.”—“Knowing and seeing in this way, would you return to the observances, tumultuous debates, and auspicious signs of ordinary recluses and brahmins, taking them as the core of the holy life?”—“No, venerable sir.”—“Do you speak only of what you have known, seen, and understood for yourselves?” —“Yes, venerable sir.”

“Good, bhikkhus. So you have been guided by me with this Dhamma, which is visible here and now, immediately effective, inviting inspection, onward leading, to be experienced by the wise for themselves. For it was with reference to this that it has been said: ‘Bhikkhus, this Dhamma is visible here and now, immediately effective, inviting inspection, onward leading, to be experienced by the wise for themselves.’

MN 38

As for the books posted here, including the books you repeated, I hope to get around to reading them.

My interest in starting this thread is to learn about Brahmanism rather than pre-Buddhist non-Brahman ideas so I hope to be able to distinguish between Brahman views on reincarnation & the views of non-Brahmans.

Before we get over-excited with cravings for future becoming & future reincarnations (which the Buddha called “blameworthy”), I thought I would make this clear.

Non-Brahmans may have developed reincarnation views before the Buddhas but my reading of the suttas gains the impression Brahmans themselves were not overly concerned with reincarnation but were keen on going to heaven with Brahma, similar to a Christian.

Definitely not. In the EBTs, the Buddha was called the ‘Spiritual Doctor’. The same as a doctor, the Buddha discerned the disease or illness of sorrow & went looking for the cause of that disease or illness of sorrow, as follows:

Monks, before I attained supreme Enlightenment, while I was still a Bodhisatta, the thought occurred to me: 'This world, alas, has fallen into sore distress (kicchaṃ)". SN 12.10

That is all paticca-samuppāda is, to me. The etiology of the illness & sickness of sorrow, which is summarised for those that over-complexitize in MN 28.

Now this has been said by the Blessed One: “One who sees dependent origination sees the Dhamma; one who sees the Dhamma sees dependent origination.” And these five aggregates affected by clinging are dependently arisen. The desire, indulgence, inclination, and holding based on these five aggregates affected by clinging is the origin of suffering. The removal of desire and lust, the abandonment of desire and lust for these five aggregates affected by clinging is the cessation of suffering.’ At that point too, friends, much has been done by that bhikkhu.” MN 28[quote=“cjmacie, post:12, topic:5571”]
Gombrich attempts to summarize the Upanisadic teachings relevant to the Buddha
[/quote]

Unfortunately, the more these kinds of ideas are entertained, embraced & rejoiced in, the more the foundation of Buddhism, namely, the Perfectly Self-Enlightened Buddha, is diminished & refuted.

The Perfectly Self-Enlightened Buddha unambiguously said in this 1st sermon that his teachings were about things he had never heard before.

Take care :rabbit2:

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I hope it isn’t too tangential, especially with this in mind:

but I’ve been reading from DN2 and remembering your post, suddenly thought how weird it is that while six other competing schools of thought are covered there the views of the Brahmins are not.

I don’t know whether it is just far too much of a stretch, but nevertheless wonder if this sutta, in conjunction with what we learn about the Brahmins elsewhere, can be used to learn anything about the Brahmin doctrine held at the time of the Buddha (eg. we can see a number of schools explicitly reject kamma and at the same time explicitly reject rebirth, from the suttas already mentioned above we can feel in some way confident that the Brahmins were exponents of the doctrine of kamma - from this might we infer they necessarily had to hold some sort of rebirth view… just wondering out loud :slight_smile: ).

Possibly. I recall when I skimmed some of the recommended books it was said, at least in respect to some of the pre-Buddha sages, that they were similar to the Buddha, i.e., of the warrior caste. This is particularly what I want to investigate & research.

Thanks. I will try to get around to reading it on the weekend. I was flat out working today. Got to make $$$.

Certainly. I tend to believe in evolution and collective history and sense Brahmanism was similar to Judaism & other tribal or social class-centric theistic religions which all arose as a similar genre of religion at a certain time in history. This is what I am investigating.

Kind regards :slight_smile:

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[quote=“Dhammanando, post:16, topic:5571, full:true”]

Pronouncewiki is great for this. …[/quote]
Handy tool, and interesting to hear multiple variations (and explore other language-speakers). Thanks

My take on it is in life there are realities (such as earth, wind, body, mind, sky, etc) & these realities will play a part in most attempts to describe the world & life. Therefore, most philosophies will share certain phenomena in common.

For example, reading The Brihadaranyaka Upanishad, Section II - The Process of Creation, there are verse which sound very much like the Old Testament creation story in Genesis, particularly the use of the phrases: “In the beginning” & “Let there be” and the overall differentiating of the undifferentiated via “naming” or “calling”:

There was nothing whatsoever here in the beginning. It was covered only by Death (Hiraṇyagarbha), or Hunger, for hunger is death. He created the mind, thinking, ‘Let me have a mind.’ He moved about worshipping (himself). As he was worshipping, water was produced. (Since he thought), ‘As I was worshipping, water sprang up,’ therefore Arka (fire) is so called. Water (or happiness) surely comes to one who knows how Arka (fire) came to have this name of Arka.

Water is Arka. What was there (like) froth on the water was solidified and became this earth. When that was produced, he was tired. [Page 27] While he was (thus) tired and distressed, his essence, or lustre, came forth. This was Fire.

He (Virāj) differentiated himself in three ways, making the sun the third form, and air the third form. So this Prāṇa (Virāj) is divided in three ways. His head is the east, and his arms that (north-east) and that (south-east). And his hind part is the west, his hip-bones that (north-west) and that (south-west), his sides the south and north, his back heaven, his belly the sky, and his breast, this earth. He rests on water. He who knows (it) thus gets a resting place wherever he goes.

In Section VI - The Three Aspects of the Universe, there is a discussion about ‘nama-rupa’, which while being a valid descriptor of how the human mind constructs its world, does not necessarily mean the Buddha’s use of ‘nama-rupa’ was always & predominantly the same:

This (universe) indeed consists of three things: name, form and action (trayaṃ vā idam—nāma rūpaṃ karma).

Of those names, speech (sound in general) is the Uktha (source), for all names spring from it. It is their Sāman (common feature), for it is common to all names. It is their Brahman (self), for it sustains all names.

Now of forms the eye (anything visible) is the Uktha (source), for all forms spring from it. It is their Sāman (common feature), for it is common to all forms. It is their Brahman (self), for it sustains all forms.

And of actions the body (activity) is the Uktha (source), for all actions spring from it. It is their Sāman (common feature), for it is common to all actions. It is their Brahman (self), for it sustains all actions.

These three together are one—this body, and the body, although one, is these three. This immortal entity is covered by truth (the five elements): The vital force is the immortal entity, and name and form are truth (nāmarūpe satyam); (so) this vital force is covered by them.

Then Section IV - The Creation and Its Cause it introduces the ideas of: (i) the organ of speech; (ii) the mind; and (iii) the vital force, which are very similar to the kaya, vaci & citta sankhara, defined in MN 44 as breathing, applied thought & perception/feeling, and also found as terms in dependent origination:

This (universe) was then undifferentiated. It differentiated only into name and form—it was called such and such, and was of such and such form. So to this day it is differentiated only into name and form—it is called such and such, and is of such and such form. This Self has entered into these bodies up to the tip of the nails—as a razor may be put in its case, or as fire, which sustains the world, may be in its source. People do not see It, for (viewed in Its aspects) It is incomplete. When It does the function of living, It is called the vital force; when It speaks, the organ of speech; when It sees, the eye; when It hears, the ear; and when It thinks, the mind.

Then Section V - Manifestations of Prajapati continues:

‘Three he designed for himself’ means: The mind, the organ of speech and the vital force; these he designed for himself… Prāṇa, Apāna, Vyāna, Udāna, Samāna and Ana—all these are but the vital force. This body is identified with these—with the organ of speech, the mind and the vital force.

These are the three worlds. The organ of speech is this world (the earth), the mind is the sky, and the vital force is that world (heaven).

These are the three Vedas. The organ of speech is the Ṛg-Veda, the mind is the Yajur-Veda and the vital force the Sāma-Veda.

These are the gods, the Manes and men. The organ of speech is the gods, the mind the Manes, and the vital force men.

These are the father, mother and child. The mind is the father, the organ of speech the mother, and the vital force the child.

In conclusion, my point is just because this Upanishad identifies the phenomena of vital force (kaya sankhara), speech (vaci) and mind (citta) and groups them together as constituents of creation, does not mean the Buddha used these as a blue print for any of his teachings, including dependent origination.

The body as a reality contains breathing, the mind contains thought function, perception & feeling. When these basic phenomena are affected by ignorance & defiled asava (outflows), these phenomena then lead to conditioning the body & mind to generate stress & suffering.

For example, the science of Traditional Chinese Medicine (TCM) understands an impure, polluted or blocked vital force (chi; prana) can cause physical & mental disease. Just because the vital force is mentioned in the Upanishad does not mean theories of TCM were based on the Upanishad.

:deciduous_tree:

Well… I am stuck on reading this Upanishad therefore sort of off-topic regarding the Four Vedas. However, as a comparative study with DN 13:

‘Well then, Vaseṭṭha, what about the early sages of those Brahmins learned in the Three Vedas, the makers of the mantras, the expounders of the mantras, whose ancient verses are chanted, pronounced and collected by the Brahmins of today, and sung and spoken about — such as Atthaka, Vāmaka, Vāmadeva, Vessāmitta, Yamataggi, Angirasa, Bhāradvāja, Vāsettha, Kassapa, Bhagu - did they ever say: “We know and see when, how and where Brahmā appears”?’ ‘No,

:seedling:

Section VI - The Line of Teachers

1. Now the line of teachers: Pautimāṣya (received it) from Gaupavana. Gaupavana from another Pautimāṣya. This Pautimāṣya from another Gaupavana. This Gaupavana from Kauśika. Kauśika from Kanṇḍiriya. Kauṇḍinya from Śāṇḍilya. Śāṇḍilya from Kauśika and Gautama. Gautama—

2. From Āgniveśya. Āgniveśya from Śāṇḍilya and Anabhimlāta. Ānabhimlāta from another of that name. He from a third Ānabhimlāta. This Ānabhimlāta from Gautama. Gautama from Saitava and Prācīnayogya. They from Pārāśarya. Pārāśarya from Bharadvāja. He from Bharadvāja and Gautama. Gautama from another Bhāradvāja. He from another Pārāśarya. Pārāśarya from Baijavāpāyana. He from Kauśikāyani. Kauśikāyani—

3. From Ghṛtakauśika. Ghṛtakauśika from Pārāśaryāyaṇa. He from Pārāśarya. Pārāśarya from Jātūkarṇya. Jātūkarṇya from Āsurāyaṇa and Yāska. Āsurāyaṇa from Traivaṇi. Traivaṇi from. Aupajandhani. He from Āsuri. Āsuri from Bhāradvāja. Bhāradvāja from Ātreya. Ātreya from Māṇṭi. Māṇṭi from Gautama. Gautama from another Gautama. He from Vātsya. Vātsya from Śāṇḍilya. Śāṇḍilya from Kaiśorya Kāpya. He from Kumārahārita. Kumārahārita from Gālava. Gālava from Vidarbhīkauṇḍinya. He from Vatsanapāt Bābhrava. He from Pathin Saubhara. He from Ayāsya Āṅgirasa. He from Ābhūti Tvāṣṭra. He from Viśvarūpa Tvāṣṭra. He from the Aśvins. They from Dadhyac Ātharvaṇa. He from Atharvan Daiva. He from Mṛtyu Prādhvaṃsana. He from Prādhvaṃsana. Prādhvaṃsana from Ekarṣi. Ekarṣi from Viprachitti. Viprachitti from Vyaṣṭi. Vyaṣṭi from Sanāru. Sanāru from Sanātana. Sanātana from Sanaga. Sanaga from Parameṣṭhin (Virāj). He from Brahman (Hiraṇyagarbha). Brahman is self-born. Salutation to Brahman.

Going further off-topic, some interesting verses on liberation (mukti), which seems to say to identify speech as ‘fire’; the eye as ‘the sun’; the vital force as ‘air’; the mind as the ‘moon’.

Yājñavalkya,’ said he, ‘since all this is overtaken by death, and swayed by it, by what means does the sacrificer go beyond the clutches of death?’

‘Through the organ of speech—through fire, which is the (real) priest called Hotṛ. The sacrificer’s organ of speech is the Hotṛ. This organ of speech is fire; this fire is the Hotṛ; this (fire) is liberation; this (liberation) is emancipation.’

‘Through the vital force—through air, which is the (real) priest called Udgātṛ. The vital force of the sacrificer is the Udgātṛ. This vital force is air, and it is the Udgātṛ; this (air) is liberation; this (liberation) is emancipation.’

‘Through the eye—through the sun, which is the (real) priest called Adhvaryu. The eye of the sacrificer is the Adhvaryu. This eye is the sun; this sun is the Adhvaryu; this (sun) is liberation; this (liberation) is emancipation.’

‘Through the mind—through the moon, which is the (real) priest called Brahman. The mind of the sacrificer is the Brahman. This mind is the moon; the moon is the Brahman; this (moon) is liberation; this (liberation) is emancipation.’

The Commentary of Śaṅkarācārya states: “which takes one beyond the death that consists in attachment to limitations relating to the body and the elements”.

More:

‘Yājñavalkya,’ said he, ‘when this man dies, what is it that does not leave him?’

‘Name. The name indeed is infinite and infinite are the Viśvadevas. He (who knows thus) wins thereby verily an infinite world.’

‘Yājñavalkya,’ said he, ‘when the vocal organ of a man who dies is merged in fire, the nose in air, the eye in the sun, the mind in the moon, the ear in the quarters, the body in the earth, the ether of the heart in the external ether, the hair on the body in the herbs, that on the head in the trees, and the blood and the seed are deposited in water, where is then the man?’

‘Give me your hand, dear Ārtabhāga, we will decide this between ourselves, we cannot do it in a crowd.’ They went out and talked it over. What they mentioned there was only work (karma) and what they praised there was also only work. (Therefore) one indeed becomes good through good work (karmaṇā) and evil through evil work. Thereupon Ārtabhāga, of the line of Jaratkāru, kept silent.

:dizzy: :sparkles::fireworks:

This is your self that is within all; everything else but this is perishable.

‘explain to me the Brahman that is immediate and direct—the [Page 475] self that is within all.’ ‘This is your self that is within all.’ ‘Which is within all, Yājñavalkya?’ ‘That which transcends hunger and thirst, grief, delusion, decay and death. Knowing this very Self the Brāhmaṇas renounce the desire for sons, for wealth and for the worlds, and lead a mendicant life. That which is the desire for sons is the desire for wealth, and that which is the desire for wealth is the desire for the worlds, for both these are but desires. Therefore the knower of Brahman, having known all about scholarship, should try to live upon that strength which comes of knowledge; having known all about this strength as well as scholarship, he becomes meditative; having known all about born meditativeness and its opposite, he becomes a knower of Brahman. How does that knower of Brahman behave? Howsoever he may behave, he is just such. Except this everything is perishable.’

[quote=“Deeele, post:17, topic:5571, full:true”]

[quote=“cjmacie, post:15, topic:5571”]
Linda Blanchard’s take on it all, however, may interest you (if you’re not already familiar with her book), as it elaborates Jurewicz’s research specifically in terms of the paticca-samuppāda doctrine, which appears to play a central role in the Buddha’s message as radically reinterpreting traditions he was born into.
[/quote][/quote]

Having revisited this, and taken another look at Linda’s book, I should clarify that the basic idea is to be found in Jurewicz essay (predating the “Fire and Cognition” book by 10 years): "Playing with Fire: The pratītyasamutpāda from the perspective of Vedic thought"
http://www.ahandfulofleaves.org/documents/Playing%20with%20Fire_The%20pratityasamutpada%20from%20the%20perspective%20of%20Vedic%20thought_JPTS_Jurewicz_2000.pdf

Here Jurewicz hypothesizes step-by-step correspondences between the Vedic creation myth and the Buddha’s use of a similar sequence of concepts and relationships in the paticcasamuppada. In the Vedic version, Atman = fire creates and fulfills human life (through cognition). In contrast, the Buddha points to fire (tanha in it’s Sanskrit form ) as the key damaging link, in a sequence of logical conditioned steps, changes, deprived of any substantial underpinning (atman), which elucidate the impersonal mechanics of human suffering. He, in effect, entirely refutes the purpose of the Vedic schema, which would be evident to his more educated listeners (Brahmins), and casts the schema in a form to be understood and overcome on the path to liberating the mind. Again, this is the hypothesis she presents, citing abundant documentation.

Linda Blanchard’s book takes this analysis further into her own theory that the Buddha was describing, in contrast with the Vedic myth, a rather psychological and secular interpretation. I think she attempts to parallel the Buddha’s comparison / contrast with the common Vedic understanding of his time (according to Jurewicz), with her own modernist comparison / contrast with traditional Theravada as found today.

Were you capable of reading this (Jurewicz’s essay – it’s just 10 pages), without having to believe it, and without having to spin off into reaction against difference with your own beliefs, you might be in a position to meaningfully discuss it, or choose not to.

Btw, I’m very familiar with Than-Geoff’s book. as well as that by Silananda Sayadaw, and other expositions and historical analyses of paticcasamuppada. One particularly succinct but comprehensive survey of the topic can be found in V. Analayo’s first book on Sattipatthana (2003) pp. 107-112 in the print version, pp. 99-103 in an internet downloadable version:
https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=3&ved=0ahUKEwjRnbTzhrbUAhUG6iYKHSnTBv4QFgg2MAI&url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.abhayagiri.org%2Fmedia%2Fdiscs%2FAPasannoRetreats%2F2013%2520Fourth%2520Foundation%2520of%2520Mindfulness%2FSources%2FAnalayo_Satipatthana-The-Direct-Path-to-Realization.pdf&usg=AFQjCNEL4rMY3JdpCFVsqM19gihOmgGVTg&cad=rja
In his second book on Sattipatthana (2013), he revisits the topic, including reference to Jurewicz theory, on pp.123-127.

[quote=“cjmacie, post:25, topic:5571”]Jurewicz hypothesizes step-by-step correspondences between the Vedic creation myth and the Buddha’s use of a similar sequence of concepts and relationships in the paticcasamuppada.
[/quote]

This is irrelevant, as I already explained.

The Buddha examined a disease & the causes of that disease, similar to a medical researcher examining cancer & the causes of cancer.

The Buddha examined what pre-existed within the mental phenomena of suffering (rather than examined what pre-existed in the Vedas).

The only Vedic aspect of paticcasamuppada would be the hijacking & redefinition of the term ‘nama-rupa’ in order to debunk its Vedic importance.

Instead of ending differentiating via ending ‘naming-forms’ ('nama-rupa) to merge into the undifferentiated non-dual oneness with the Brahma-Self; the Buddha taught to end & remove craving from the mind-body (nama-rupa); thus rendering the whole business of ‘naming-forms’ as irrelevant to the spiritual path.

I recommend to read & embody Tan Geoff’s explanation of ‘nama-rupa’ in his Shape of Suffering book.

So, based on your posts here, it sounds like you disagree with Than-Geoff’s meditative book & verifiable analysis but prefer the non-fruitional (non-meditative) speculations of Jurewicz & Blanchard. [quote=“cjmacie, post:25, topic:5571”]
One particularly succinct but comprehensive survey of the topic can be found in V. Analayo’s first book
[/quote]

Please quote the passages you believe are relevant. Thanks[quote=“cjmacie, post:25, topic:5571”]
pp. 107-112
[/quote]

I read nothing relevant to this topic from pp107 - 112 but read words & ideas contrary to Tan Geoff.

This topic is about rebirth & reincarnation in the Brahma Vedas, which based on my research so far, does not appear to be a very strong & systematically defined doctrine in the Vedas and even in the Upanishads.

Where as Analayo appears to be mostly expressing some personal ideas about D.O. based on the Patisambhidãmagga. Your inference that Analayo seems to believe the Buddha was explaining D.O. as a substitute to Brahman theories appears tenuous.

At the time of the Buddha, a variety of philosophical positions on causality were current in India… The Buddha, on the other hand, proposed dependent co-arising (paticca samuppãda) as his “middle way” explanation of causality… According to the Paìisambhidãmagga, these twelve links extend over three consecutive individual lifetimes.

While off-topic, Analayo later gives an alternative views of D.O. similar to Tan Geoff.

Another example of a direct application of the principle of conditionality can be found in the Indriyabhãvanã Sutta, which qualifies pleasure and displeasure arising at any of the six sense doors as dependently arisen (paìicca samuppanna), a usage that is not related to past or future lives. The same holds true for the Madhupiœôika Sutta’s detailed analysis of the perceptual process. This discourse depicts the “arising” (uppãda) of consciousness “in dependence” (paìicca) on sense organ and sense object, with contact being the coming “together” (saÿ) of the three. This passage reveals a deeper significance of each part of the term paìicca sam-uppãda, “dependent” “co-” “arising”, without any need for different lifetimes or for the whole set of twelve links. Thus realization of dependent co-arising can take place simply by witnessing the operation of conditionality in the present moment, within one’s own subjective experience.

Since Analayo seems to comprehend “dependent” “co" "-arising”, namely, the 12 links should probably arise together, I wonder why Analayo would entertain the Patisambhidãmagga idea?

Regardless, back to topic thanks. Let’s try to make quality posts identifying & quoting key issues.

:seedling:

[quote=“Deeele, post:26, topic:5571, full:true”]
The Buddha examined a disease & the causes of that disease, similar to a medical researcher examining cancer & the causes of cancer.

The Buddha examined what pre-existed within the mental phenomena of suffering (rather than examined what pre-existed in the Vedas). [/quote]

Jurewicz and others document their views, using Vedic as well as Pali sources. These statements (quoted here) appear to simply assert some kind of view.

[quote=“Deeele, post:26, topic:5571, full:true”]
So, based on your posts here, it sounds like you disagree with Than-Geoff’s meditative book & verifiable analysis but prefer the non-fruitional (non-meditative) speculations of Jurewicz & Blanchard. [/quote]

How exactly is it to be inferred that I “disagree with Than-Geoff’s meditative book & verifiable analysis”? And “prefer… speculations…”? My text is largely enumerating sources, without specifically judging them other than as worthy of consideration. Than-Geoff’s* book (“The Shape of Suffering”) is dhamma teaching, an exegesis of sutta sources and according to his understanding and reflecting his teaching lineage.

This terminology – “meditative book and verifiable analysis”, “non-fruitional (non-meditative) speculations” “read and embody Tan Geoff’s explanation” – is this intended to represent some kind of privileged revelation and/or attainment, rather than a perspective of view-point, however well studied?

[quote=“Deeele, post:26, topic:5571, full:true”]
Please quote the passages you believe are relevant. [/quote]
Ven. Analayo is presenting a survey of interpretive views of paticcasamuppada, specifically against the background of “a variety of philosophical positions on causality … current in India [at the time of the Buddha]”. He does contribute, IMO, a rather notable point (emphasis added) :
“…
the twelve links are but a particular frequent application of the general structural principle of dependent co-arising. In the Paccaya Sutta [SN], the Buddha introduces this important distinction between the general principle and its application. This discourse speaks of the twelve links as dependently originated phenomena, while pattica samuppada” refers to the relation between them, that is, the principle.”

“To speak of dependent co-arising is to speak of specific conditions related to specific events. Such “specific conditionality” (idappaccayata) can be illustrated in the following manner:
When A is → B comes to be. With the arising of A → B arises.
When A is not → B does not come to be. With the cessation of A → B ceases.[paraphrasing M III.63, which is quoted in a footnote]”

He goes on to illustrate with passages throughout the suttas demonstrating specific conditional relationships and groupings of them, and relates this to a “specific application of conditionality to the practice of meditation apparent during most of the contemplations of dhammas”, i.e in the context of the Satipatthana Sutta, the topic of his book(s).

[quote=“Deeele, post:26, topic:5571, full:true”]This topic is about rebirth & reincarnation in the Brahma Vedas…

Where as Analayo appears to be mostly expressing some personal ideas about D.O. based on the Patisambhidãmagga. Your inference that Analayo seems to believe the Buddha was explaining D.O. as a substitute to Brahman theories appears tenuous. [/quote]
In contrast with Analayo’s rather even-handed presentation of the available interpretations of paticcasamuppada (across both Satipatthana books), how can you characterize this as expressing his “personal ideas” based the Patisambhidamagga, and where overall he cites a long list of sutta passages and interpretations of other authors/commentators?

Isn’t he using “co-” in terms of the relationship between the two elements/events in any specific conditioned link? Evidence that he asserts that the 12 links arise together, or that he “entertains” the Patisambhidãmagga idea in any other than as one of a list of interpretations – all this, in lieu of more accurate textual analysis on the part of your critique, would appear to indicate arather “tenuous” grasp of his exposition.

Note: The Patisambhidamagga interpretation of “three consecutive lifetimes”, as well as the Vedic mythology of successive births and deaths of the enduring Atman, as documented by Jurewicz and other authorities, and as further present in the Upanishadic phase of Vedic development – these indicate the relevance of my discussion to the OP topic here.

Further indications are that your “research” here is as yet in a formative stage. But please keep at it. There’s much to be learned in this area, and thank you for sharing it.

[*] referring to Thanissaro Bhikkhu, Ajahn Thanissaro as others use, and Than-Geoff as used by some who are familiar with him personally, as he does list himself as author in some of his writings as “ThanissaroBhikkhu (Geoffrey DeGraff)”.