Recommended teachers?

This is correct, the reason being serenity is easier to understand than insight and the Buddha was a skilled teacher. Vipassana is throughout the suttas, but requires knowledge to discern. For example the majority of a number of suttas listing the jhanas conclude with the extinction of all cankers, which is insight (vipassana) and the only one of the higher powers which is a necessary condition for sainthood.

For example: Digha Nikaya 34; Majjhima Nikaya 4, 6, 77; Anguttara Nikaya 3.99, 5.23; Samyutta Nikaya 15.9

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Those who follow the vipassana path correctly relegate jhana to a lesser position than insight:

" The three divisions of the Noble Eightfold Path provide the check against this threefold layering of the defilements. The first, the training in moral discipline, restrains unwholesome bodily and verbal activity and thus prevents defilements from reaching the stage of transgression. The training in concentration provides the safeguard against the stage of manifestation. It removes already manifest defilements and protects the mind from their continued influx. But even though concentration may be pursued to the depths of full absorption, it cannot touch the basic source of affliction — the latent tendencies lying dormant in the mental continuum. Against these concentration is powerless, since to root them out calls for more than mental calm. What it calls for, beyond the composure and serenity of the unified mind, is wisdom (pañña), a penetrating vision of phenomena in their fundamental mode of being."

—Bikkhu Bodhi

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Wow marvellous sir! Thank you so much for pointing this! :pray::pray::pray:

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I have attended 10 days vipassana course of igatpuri dhammagiri by S.N. Goenka. He also said that when one is practicing Vipassana-insight, knowing about jhana s does not matter. Jhanas come in mundane concentrations and don’t necessarily help in liberation. But vipassana-insight, if followed correctly, after taking appropriate guidance, can actually lead to entering stream of dhamma(stream-entry). It is said that when one is reading or remembering various suttas, commentaries, jatakas, or any of such things, all of it essentially means that we are just reading about a sweet food. We are actually supposed to eat it. That’s what practicing Vipassana is. It is the path which leads to straight awakening in this very life right now. We can know the efficacy of dhamma right here and now if we practice Vipassana. So yes jhana are of very very less significance if one is practicing Vipassana. Jhanas should not be focused on if one wants to realise the essense of Buddha’s dhamma right here and right now.

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I have attended several of the Goenka courses too and unfortunately Goenka is not reading the suttas or perhaps choosing to ignore the parts that don’t fit his tradition. Jhanas are the 8th factor of Noble Eightfold path and allow the hindrances to be abandoned. you cannot gain liberating insight of anicca when your mind has hindrances. hindrances are abandoned in jhanas so jhanas are essential for liberating insight.

most of the stuff he says is good but that part and the kalapas part isn’t what the Buddha taught.
it is good though people stay present and do body sweeping and anapanasati.

Don’t say that my dear friend. Goenka guruji is not teaching suttas because he is directly teaching Vipassana course to people who have come to attend the retreat. Many of the people who attend course are not familiar with buddhism so that’s why suttas are not read/taught directly.

Goenka was not born in buddhist community. He was born in Hindu community of merchant and was millionaire at the age of 25. Moreover he don’t teach suttas because one cannot learn Vipassana by reading suttas. Teaching suttas is not goal of that course. Only refuge in triple jewel and taking precepts is enough to learn the Vipassana-insight technique, which is the goal there. The reason for attending course is not to enrich our knowledge of suttas essentially. Reason is to learn something which we can use in our daily life to be free from daily pains/suffering.

As far as I know, jhanas don’t help in abandoning hindrances, they merely help in suppressing them. Regardless of that, whatever you are saying can be done after realising the noble eightfold path. Vipassana-insight technique is the the first step for general practitioner. We are not adept like some monks in the Buddha’s time to go through jhanas first and then insight. Even Goenka guruji say this, we can also go through jhanas first and then insight but it requires time. Going with Vipassana insight is easy way. I will give you an analogy.

Suppose realising the fruit of stream-entry is like learning to write correctly with pen. Jhanas are like posture. Goal is to improve handwriting and not to improve posture. If we learn the rules of writing first then we can find posture on our own afterwards. But if we run behind learning posture we will lose/forget the very goal of our venture which is learning to write. Once person learns to write perfectly, meaning, once one attains insight into impermanence, one will enter into stream and then one can progress further by himself or herself. But if one goes through jhanas, there is very high chance that one will stay in jhanas only and won’t work further from that, as it requires guidance also. Opposite to that once one attains proficiency in insight of impermanence through vipassana, one can progress by himself on the path without guidance.

I hope you are getting what I am trying to say. Vipassana-insight is one of the direct way to the core/goal of Buddhism which is liberation. We still don’t know the importance of that.

No my dear friend. Jhanas can be attained through insight only and Liberating insight not required as far as I know. [Liberating insight=insight which has seen impermanence]. If one(ordinary person) enters jhanas without liberating insight one will definitely be stuck there(cling). Jhanas should be entered with the help of liberating insight only for general people like us who lack continuous and perfect guidance. And liberating insight is attained through vipassana only.

I don’t know but regardless of that if one progresses in vipassana, one definitely comes across it. As far as I know kalapas is the smallest unit of everything we experience. Seeing kalapas means seeing impermanence directly in our own body.

Irrespective of Buddha taught that or not, vipassana insight meditation surely gives insight into the reality of impermanence. And when one observes impermanence directly through insight, then only one sincerely searches for that which is not impermanent, that which is permanent, that which we call nibbana. Searching sincerely then one realizes that which is permanent, that which is not born and does not die. So in other words, only then noble eightfold path is attained after stream-entry. Only stream-enterer has right view, the first of eightfold path. Till then one is just trying to follow noble eightfold path.

We actually don’t search for permanence sincerely even if we do chanting or enter jhanas or study any sutta.

The linear interpretation is preliminary, followed in time as practice develops by the circular. In sila/ samadhi/ panna the culminating element is the wisdom component of right view and right intention, penetrating the linear and setting the circular in motion.

“One makes an effort for the abandoning of wrong view & for entering into right view: This is one’s right effort. One is mindful to abandon wrong view & to enter & remain in right view: This is one’s right mindfulness.[2] Thus these three qualities — right view, right effort, & right mindfulness — run & circle around right view.”

—Majjhima Nikaya 117

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One thing I forgot to mention is what I mean by general practitioner.

General practitioner means one whose mental defilements are not prone to manifest in his body atleast during practice.

It is just as said above by bhikkhu bodhi.

Take for example person who is prone to lustful thoughts. During practice such person is more likely to stop practicing and start engaging in lustful acts. So for such people(who don’t come in general lot) need to practice concentration first. General lot is not like that.

Hi dhamma friend.
Goenka retreats are helpful in that they encourage presence, acceptance and being aware of the body. The teachings though have several errors. Following the teachings in the Goenka retreat do not lead to full liberation from suffering as taught by the historical Buddha.

To realize Nibbana it would be helpful to read the Buddha’s teachings. When a teacher says something that contradicts the Buddha’s teachings then one must ignore those untrue teachings and stick with the Buddha’s teachings if one wants to end rebirth and realize Nibbana.

it is a shame that our conversation was deleted. I do not know why as you made very good points and we addressed important experiences that arise and their limitations. there may be people who have the same confusions from the Goenka retreats who will try to seek clarifications. I think some people who have the role of moderator are enjoying exerting too much control over other people’s conversations

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Hello friend!

What S.N. Goenka taught is simply one of the ways of reaching nibbana. I don’t see anywhere even in his books or in his recorded lectures that he claimed that what he is teaching is the only way. It is not the only way I am sure he also knew that as we all know. But I would say it is one of the easy ways which could be spread in masses. His goal was to spread this teaching in masses comprising of people not just from buddhist background but also from different religious backgrounds.

My teacher says there are thousands of ways to nibbana, if any person holds and follows even only one of them he can reach there.

So Even if that person don’t know some suttas, he can somehow reach there if he follows anyone path, as maybe he will find the need to read suttas by himself and read them if he finds it necessary

Off course reading will definitely help. I don’t know what Goenka taught which you are referring as contradiction. I would like to listen if you could tell me what contradiction you found. As for me I didn’t find any contradiction between what Goenka taught and what I have read. Well I haven’t read all the Buddhist suttas…as Buddha’s teachings are vast…it is not possible atleast for me to read all of them. I have read very few and I didn’t find any contradiction in them atleast.

Oh can you not see our conversation? I can see my last message although it is saying hidden from community and there is also an option of show hidden content, by clicking on which I can read it. Can you try clicking on ‘read hidden content’?

I don’t think we have to worry about such people haha. I do believe I can misunderstand any point easily. As we all are capable of erring. So I don’t say that this is wrong even if it seems. Instead I try to analyse to find fault in my own assumptions.

Don’t say that dear friend. Moderators are very good and doing their job nicely. It’s their right and duty to judge our conversations as to prevent flourishing of the misunderstandings and misbehaviors.
I do think that above conversation is hidden by forum software only and not by moderators. Can you please tell me which part you cannot read? I can share that again if necessary.

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May I know the reason?

The talks are great.

Ayya Khema! passed away but online talks. Anyone met her? impressions?

Hi! i wanted to mention the stuff that Goenka said wasn’t accurate translation or not word of Buddha, the little that i know.

now bear jn mind that i think the centers are great for humanity and Mr Goenka is doing great work giving people the opportunity to sit quietly and practice observing with equanimity.

I am bringing this up so that people who take his course don’t believe 100 percent the philosophy but check for themselves the teachings as the way Goenka teaches would stop one from reaching final goal. In what way? in anapanasati he says that when sensation of breath dissapears then to just breath harder but in the sutta the rapture and bliss leads to jhanas etc. He says when there is tranquility to observe the tiny movements, which encourages too much activity of the mind. If one just stays still with equanimity then jhanas may develop and then with that clear mind free of hindrances one gains the liberating insights.

Bhikkhu Sujato wrote a great essay “swift pair of messengers” that talks in length about the whole vipassana misunderstanding. Buddha said they always go together Samatha and Vipassana.

so it’s good. i used to volunteer heaps at the centers and i still think it is good they exist yet I do wish we can delete some things he says as it will keep people stuck in samsara. Hopefully the sincere students will come on sutta central and discover the words of the Buddha by excellent translator Bh Sujato.

ok some things that come to mind.
So Buddha didn’t talk about Kalapas.
no Bangas in suttas
sankharas dont rise to surface like he says they do.
we can’t just run through a store of sankaras. it doesn’t work like that. Buddha didn’t teach that.
only path is 8fold path. not satipatthana. that’s just a mistranslation
we can’t be aware of subatomic particles. Our sensory receptors do not have a receltive field that is small enough. Our mind creates a representation of the world including a representation of our body so we can never know what is going on in the physical realm including our body, just our mental representation of it. It is science. Ask any neurologist how the brain works :slight_smile:

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I think this teaching is absent not only in the the book mentioned but also in the Commentaries and manuals of Ledi Sayadaw.

Yes but that is not the purpose of his course. He is not teaching concentrations. Yes you are right…entry into concentration starts when breath disappears(but Goenka asks to be aware of sensations of body after breath instead of going in between). He doesn’t want people there to end up in jhanas and enjoy them. He wants them to observe sensations.

That being said it’s upto individual. We are free to think that his technique is inadequate or not.

When one enters jhanas I don’t think one can know impermanence of jhanas easily. Instead one starts to lose himself and keeps experiencing that. Do you think it will be easy to ignore such great and subtle happiness born of concentration? For me I don’t think it’s easy. In other words I am saying that if one wants to practice through progressing concentrations/jhanas…one needs the ability to stay neutral so that transition from 1st concentration to next concentration will be possible and practitioner would actually progress further instead of staying in first one. But for those who enter concentrations first time get stuck there usually… I don’t think it is easy to stay neutral so that one would go progressively in higher concentrations instead of just staying in first concentration and ultimately see nibbana afterwards in the end. I believe this is what you are talking about and certainly it seems a lot harder! Atleast for me it won’t be easy and I am happy with it. I believe Goenka does not advises that so that it will be easy to see glimpse of nibbana directly. I am just saying my point of view ok.

My grandmother had severe spondylolisthesis (gap and dislocation in vertebrae). Doctor said surgery is needed otherwise self healing not possible. Well because my grandmother practiced vipassna-insight, she actually ended up self-healed. she practiced it for more than year. I mean we all including doctor were in shock that such kind of healing is very rare. There was no surgery required and she became completely well! So what Goenka teaches maybe inadequate but it certainly do have healing properties. I am lucky to witness it before my eyes! My grandmother practices it daily and whenever she gets time.

My teacher said jhanas/concentrations are part of 31 realms of existence. I am sure you might also agree with it. But that vipassana-insight meditation takes one beyond 31 realms of existence directly. I am not saying it is the only correct pathway. There are many ways. Even through jhanas one might reach nibbana. One can go beyond 31 realms through all the jhanas also. But I am sure it will be little bit harder. I also believe it will be easier to experience all the jhanas progressively for someone who has the ability to stay neutral and leave present sensation, and this ability can be developed through Vipassana-insight technique.

Oh I didn’t know that. I would love to check that article out. I searched on web but couldn’t find it. Can you please share link for that? Thank you.

Do you have experience? I am genuinely asking ok. I haven’t had any such experience though. Well I don’t even practice Vipassana-insight right now so I can’t say sankharas definitely don’t rise to surface. But I believe they do, based on whatever experience I had when I attended that course.

Why do you think that? I believe our mind does not have ability. If we practice maybe we can.

Have you ever experienced goosebumps? I believe there is certain relationship there. Goosebumps occur when we are so overwhelmed by any feeling or when we suddenly get excited. I think that can be sankharas rising to surface. I also think whenever some people in the times of Buddha used to attain stream-entry after hearing only single stanza from lord buddha, maybe they used to experience sankharas so severe that in an instant they would lose attachment to everything and even for a moment would get glimpse of nibbana as a result attain stream-entry. Although all of it is just speculation but that’s what I think.

Neurologist may even deny divine eye which many practitioners may possess. I believe yes we cannot know what is going on in physical realm of let’s say our body. But if we condition our mind maybe we can. Just as having divine vision seems impossible for general human being but I am sure you know that some monks or spiritual practitioners actually possess that so in same way I believe we can see sankharas if we change/improve our state of mind.

one cannot get stuck in jhanas. the whole point which I am trying to share is that merely observing sensations in the body cannot get you liberated. You need to practice the whole 8fold path which includes jhanas. anicca wisdom comes after that. :slight_smile:

what Goenka teaches is helpful as being aware of the present moment, sweeping the attention through the body is helpful but it is false when he says one can reach nibbana that way :slight_smile: keep practicing but Goenka’s method doesn’t go deep enough:)

you are fortunate you came across this forum and this site as you are lucky you have access to the Buddha’s teachings which will get you liberated :slight_smile: take it as a synchronicity and good kamma :slight_smile:

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remember it is the whole Noble Eightfold path that is the only path to Nibbana.

Not only the body sweep.
Goenka wasn’t enlightened. He said so himself in second to last discourse of his Satipatthana course.

Have confidence in the Buddha instead. You got here now is your opportunity:)

I’ll try to find a Dhamma talk that explains what I’m trying to say. later when i have time.

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Yes I am fortunate and lucky just as we all here are!
Maybe It is due to the result of our former good karmas that we have not parted from dhamma even in this life.:grin: May all of us end rebirth in lower realms forever!

Sure No rush.

I don’t practice it right now. Maybe I will in future.

Nice exchange of thoughts!:grinning:

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