Reconciling Pleasure and Suffering

[tonysharp]

“From whatever one reins in the mind,
From that no suffering comes to one.
Should one rein in the mind from everything,
One is freed from all suffering.”
“One need not rein in the mind from everything,
When the mind has come under control.
From whatever it is that evil comes,
From this one should rein in the mind.”

— SN 1.24

I love this sutta. But how do you begin reining in your mind from only harmful thoughts and actions? Is indulging in sense pleasures—like art, food, or sex—considered a source of harm? And, if someone chooses to indulge out of social obligation, or to draw motivation, how can they reconcile that in a world full of human—and animal—suffering? Have you ever seen videos of what Antarctic penguins endure to survive? It’s heartbreaking.

On one extreme, if you rein in the mind from everything, you won’t feel pain, but you’ll likely become a penniless societal outcast. On the other extreme, if you rein in the mind from nothing, you’ll feel all the pain, but you’ll experience more of the fleeting pleasures that worldly life provides—assuming you can momentarily push the world’s suffering to the back of your mind.

Where is the balance? How do you live in this world?

[nanavippayutta]

The word saṃyatatta apparently means both “self-restrained” and “self-controlled.” I think restraint may be a slightly better translation than control, simply because of the association that the word “control” evokes (in my Western mind at least).

We can’t force the mind to come “under control” using willpower. In fact, “we” can’t do anything at all. Instead, we just try to set the right conditions, which prompt the mind to restrain itself.

As to indulging in sense pleasures, the Eightfold Path does not include them because they do not lead to realization. Our time in this life is limited, much more so than we realize, and we waste our time if we indulge in them. It is better to do something that leads towards realization. For example, indulge in a dhamma talk, like Bāhiya in Ud1.10.

The question is always whether what we are doing leads to realization.

[josephzizys]

@tonysharp

but you’ll likely become a penniless societal outcast.

I mean, that’s literally what the buddha advised people to do?

But to refer back to the meaning of the poem;

The poem is in a Vedic metre, paṅktiḥ, and is paralleled exactly at SA1281 and SAB279

The first verse is probably what we now call Jain, that is it represents a philosophy of complete restraint. The second verse is the Buddhas response, which succinctly recapitulates what the simile of the cloth at MN7 also articulates, that the issue with “the worlds pretty things” including the sensation or feeling of pleasure, is our impure, toxic, poisonous attachment or addiction to them, and for a person who trains their mind well, sukhaṁ or pleasure is no obstacle, rather it is a vehicle to liberation through correct understanding.

Here is the Pali of the Paṅktiḥ Poem;

“Yato yato mano nivāraye,
“Whatever you’ve shielded the mind from

Na dukkhameti naṁ tato tato;
can’t cause you suffering.

Sa sabbato mano nivāraye,
So you should shield the mind from everything,

Sa sabbato dukkhā pamuccatī”ti.
then you’re freed from all suffering.”

“Na sabbato mano nivāraye,
“You needn’t shield the mind from everything.

Na mano saṁyatattamāgataṁ;
When the mind is under control,

Yato yato ca pāpakaṁ,
you need only shield the mind

Tato tato mano nivāraye”ti.
from where the bad things come.”

Here is the relevant part of MN7;

‘Yathodhi kho pana me cattaṁ vantaṁ muttaṁ pahīnaṁ paṭinissaṭṭhan’ti labhati atthavedaṁ, labhati dhammavedaṁ, labhati dhammūpasaṁhitaṁ pāmojjaṁ;
Thinking: ‘I have discarded, eliminated, released, given up, and relinquished to this extent,’ they find inspiration in the meaning and the teaching, and find joy connected with the teaching.

pamuditassa pīti jāyati, pītimanassa kāyo passambhati, passaddhakāyo sukhaṁ vedeti, sukhino cittaṁ samādhiyati.
When they’re joyful, rapture springs up. When the mind is full of rapture, the body becomes tranquil. When the body is tranquil, they feel bliss. And when they’re blissful, the mind becomes immersed in samādhi.

Sa kho so, bhikkhave, bhikkhu evaṁsīlo evaṁdhammo evaṁpañño sālīnañcepi piṇḍapātaṁ bhuñjati vicitakāḷakaṁ anekasūpaṁ anekabyañjanaṁ, nevassa taṁ hoti antarāyāya.
When a mendicant of such ethics, such qualities, and such wisdom eats boiled fine rice with the dark grains picked out and served with many soups and sauces, that is no obstacle for them.
MN7

anyway, hope that helps!

[Khemarato.bhikkhu]

The gradual path. First keep the five precepts. Then the eight. Then become a penniless mendicant.

[Quetzalcoatl]

@tonysharp

Where is the balance? How do you live in this world?

One reins it with mindfulness (Sati) +Sampajanna (Panna), you will train yours mind, to filter through experience of 6 indriyas .

One detect it with Sati ( mindfulness) and with clear comprehension filter it with wisdom (Sampajanna-Panna)- based on the following criteria’s :

Are those action, speech ,mind :
good /bad?
beneficial or not?
wise/ unwise ?
blameworthy/praiseworthy.?

Commentaries offered a few tips ,: (reference : 1. Anālayo (2006), pp. 143–5; Bodhi (2005), p. 442, n. 34; and, Nyanaponika (1996), p. 46.)

• purpose (Pāli: sātthaka): refraining from activities irrelevant to the Noble eighfold paths.
• suitability (sappāya): pursuing activities in a dignified and careful manner.
• domain (gocara):(maintaining sensory restraint consistent with mindfulness.
• non-delusion (asammoha): seeing the true nature of reality (Anicca,Dukkha,Anatta).

Thus reining it with mindfulness (Sati) and Panna ( to penetrate it)

reference from : Snp 5.2 Ajitamāṇavapucchā ( The Questions of Ajita)

Mettacittena
Qzl

[tonysharp]

Thank you all for sharing your reflections.

It seems I’ve been stuck in a nihilistic void. It took a while to sort my thoughts.

I’ve been reading The Denial of Death by Ernest Becker, and this quote leapt out at me.

Beyond a given point man is not helped by more “knowing,” but only by living and doing in a partly self-forgetful way. As Goethe put it, we must plunge into experience and then reflect on the meaning of it. All reflection and no plunging drives us mad; all plunging and no reflection, and we are brutes.

When all delusions and artifice fall away, leaving only the stark truth of an impermanent existence without purpose, where do we turn? Death feels like the next logical step from here, but it seems a waste of a rare human existence to resign to inaction or death. Being alive grants the opportunity to act. We still have at least the illusion of choice, and I choose to set benchmarks to fulfill aspirations; savor joys that stir the senses—however fleeting; exercise moderation to ease attachments; embrace silence to calm the mind; and maintain awareness of the shared suffering we carry to avoid contributing to it. This feels like an appropriate balance.

Hopefully it works out.

[Green]

As i understand the message of the sutta’s: mind is protected when there is no craving, no grasping at all anymore, i.e. the fires are extinguished, Nibbana.

One can say that a Buddhist aims for cessation of existence, but, i believe, it is exactly the same when one has a feeling for what is already pure in oneself, not defiled, peaceful, cooled, and wants to give room to this and extinguish all incoming defilements. This is like freeing the nobleness in ouselves from the imprisonment, the fetters.

It is not difficult to understand, i feel, that while defilements extinguish nothing will change but suffering will get lost. It is still you thinking, acting, speaking, but now without taken up the burden of the khandha’s. Because it is only because of grasping that we take up this burden of khandha’s, also in this very life.

I feel it is also very heartwarming that in this case one does only aim for ones own welbeing and that of others. That is also the effect of purity.

I do not believe that we have taken up the burden of the khandha’s with our physical birth, but any time a feeling (vedana) arises, for example, and instinctively it is grasped as me, mine, my self, the burden is taken up. It is something that happens in the moment.

The extinguishment of defilement in the mind the Buddha called Nibbana, the not taking up of burden. And the sutta’s talk about it as bliss, peace, coolness, ultimate happiness, the end of suffering. In this sense, it is ‘only’ the craving, the grasping that stands between this experiential ultimate happiness or bliss of Nibbana and our usual burdensome life.

The love for sense pleasures is the love, desire for nice vedana’s. This is called; kindling vedana in the sutta’s. If there is no desire for vedana it is called extinguished, it becomes cool. It does not cause problems, agitation, distress, dispair, nor even gladness when nice etc. The same for other khandha’s.

I believe, many buddhist connect to the Three Jewels not from a wish to finally have a last death and cease forever to exist, but recognising the sphere of purity in the Buddha, the Dhamma, the Sangha and also in themselves. This is like recognising Nibbana because this sphere of purity IS Nibbana. The sutta’s are very clear about this. The Path of the Buddha is a Path to purity and this is Nibbana.

But ofcourse it is all not easy. Craving is such a huge part of our lives and we have seen this craving for so long as a Path to end our suffering. Always making it still stronger while choosing to follow the cravings. At least in this life we can make more wise choices. For myself i see this as good enough.