Reflecting on Rebirth: An Understanding That Can Go Beyond Faith and Theory

Hi @anon29387788, thank for your thoughtfulness in being fair. Maybe it’s better to just delete my post as I really didn’t bring it up as a topic of discussion. The book isn’t even out yet so not sure what I would create a discussion thread about. Perhaps if someone wants to open a discussion recommending books on rebirth & other related topics, it could fit there. It’s not really my interest (i.e. I mean debate/discussion re rebirth, though I’ve enjoyed perusing this thread and hearing people’s experiences). I only mentioned the book here since there were posts about Dhammaruwan and the whole last chapter of the book is a study of his chanting, but it’s nice to keep the topic about personal reflections/experiences only.

So I’m happy to just delete the post; should I do that? If anyone wants to mention Ven Anālayo’s book in another thread on rebirth/books or whatever, feel free. Anyway, it won’t even be available until the spring, so maybe that would be an appropriate time for a discussion with those interested.

3 Likes

Oh, a whole chapter deconstructing and studying Dhammaruwan’s chanting? That’s even more interesting and tempting to buy it. :wink: Thanks (seriously, I might buy it solely to read this chapter). :slight_smile:

No worries about the post (as well as this one). They were both interesting and useful. :slight_smile:

4 Likes

P.S. I just opened @samseva’s other discussion and it seems the book would fit there, so I will move it there.

3 Likes

Thanks for your thoughtful and beautifully useful reflection Cintita! :anjal:

Thanks Linda, that’s the perfect spot for it!

@daverupa…I’ll move your post to a new thread now :slight_smile:

No trouble. :pray:t6:

Hi all
A great quality of mind is our ability to focus in and also to expand out.

Does anyone ever reflect on the whole mire of suffering that has gone before us. That what we are now is the rebirth of so many that have gone before and how with our actions now we are contributing and shaping what comes after.

Walk gently.

3 Likes

That’s a lovely reflection Peter and a beautiful reminder. Thank you. :pray:t6:

You’ve reminded me of how I’ve learned to view (at least on a reflective/intellectual level) Anatta-Dependent Origination as being a process that can be viewed over 3 lives: the current one, the previous one and the next one.

And this of course links in with this

These two essays are my favourite teachings on these two central topics.

2 Likes

If I was told “you must believe in rebirth in order to be a good Buddhist” I wouldn’t have taken refuge.

My direct, personal experience of rebirth is as a intellectual concept.
I have other direct, personal experiences in the path.

4 Likes

I agree and also think this is important.

While ‘Buddhist’ is the word we use to identify ourselves, in modern times, it does have different meanings. Would saying that practitioners of Vajrayana and Mahāyāna are only partly Buddhist be correct? Saying that they are partly following the teachings of the Buddha—since some teachings in Vajrayana and Mahāyāna were not taught by the Buddha—would be correct. However, in modern times, the word ‘Buddhist’ doesn’t have the meaning of “follower of the teachings of the Buddha”, but more “follower of teachings from any division of the modern religion called Buddhism.”

When I hear Vajrayana and Mahāyāna teachings, and I feel resistance and slight aversion to those teachings when some might be slightly questionable, I think over that, even though these practitioners would possibly benefit more in studying the actual teachings that the Buddha gave (maybe not though), they still do partake in spiritual endeavours and put forth effort in meditating and improving their minds. This is a big plus and already 100 times better than what most are doing.

According to the modern meaning of the word ‘Buddhist’, whether or not some people believe in rebirth or that some follow Vajrayana or Mahāyāna teachings, I still view them as Buddhists—not followers of the original scriptures, but still Buddhists. :slight_smile:

EDIT: I thought I was in the ‘Rebirth, Rebirth, Rebirth’ thread. :sweat_smile: I will leave it like this, since the modern meanings of the words ‘Buddhist’ and ‘Buddhism’ are important—and viewing our Mahāyāna and Vajrayana friends in a good light also being important. :slight_smile:

2 Likes

That’s an interesting view point. I’ve never thought of my intellectual concepts as coming under the catergory of “direct” or “personal” experiences. I suppose in the sense that I am thinking them, then I suppose in that sense, I could conceive of them as being “personal” at least… For me, “direct” always has a “felt” or “emotional” component, something I perceive as being almost tactile. But perhaps this is different for you? Which is of course a beautiful thing - I can’t quite verablise why, but I feel it would be a terrible thing somehow if we were all “wired” the same way.

I value your experience as being unique, worthwhile, yours and therefore, beautiful. I thank you very much for sharing here. :anjal:

Quite right too.

Thank you for sharing your thoughts Feynman :slight_smile:

Dear Feynman,

Having been very busy the last day or so, I made the mistake of replying to you too quickly in an effort to “catch up” on anything missed on the forum.

I had such a feeling of “wrongness” about my response and felt I hadn’t represented my feelings adequately nor communicated my respect for your experiences any where near well enough…

Anyway, I have subsequently had a chance to unwind a bit and have gone back and edited my reply to you. So if you read the original reply, please do allow it to be washed :ocean: away from your memory (not that it was dreadfully evil or anything :slight_smile: ) as it didn’t quite serve my intentions! And this post is just to draw your attention to the better version.

With many thanks again, and much metta, :pray:t6::heartpulse:

3 Likes

That is my sense of it as well. There are rational thought(s) and a affective/emotional ‘background’ that arises in response. My direct, personal experience of rebirth is like to the experience of thinking of other (mostly) intellectual concepts.

Most of what I think of as the core teachings of the EBT make so much sense of my experience. Other aspects such as the descriptions of the janas I can related to because I’ve had glimpses and quick “tastes” of those experiences. Then when I get to rebirth it’s like the vision of the dharma flies into a void. fades to black. There isn’t much there in my prior experience that relates to it.
It’s like “inviting” a bell – with each new strike invites a clear, ringing sound that seems to sing of enlightenment – and then the bell is removed and the mallet strikes the ground.

I liken it to hearing other persons stories of vivid out-of-body-exeriences (OOBE). I never had one so it’s a matter more of intellectual interest rather than one of shared experience.

The famous high functioning autistic Dr. Temple Grandin describes her best designs as very visual. So much so that I get the sense she can almost “feel” what it would be like to hold the paper with the detailed design in her hands. Or the tactile experience of moving through the space the designs describe.

Sometimes I get almost 3 dimensional visualizations of theories or software designs. That is common with engineers and software people – careers which tend to attract those with Auspergers/high functioning autistic brains.

It’s likely we are not wired the same way in the sense of Neurotypical.

Perhaps I can help with the verbalization. One reason it would be terrible is that no individual is so smart as to be %100 right. Or so smart as to be %100 wrong. Science is said to be “self correcting”. But that is not automatic. The self correction is made possible when different scientists are guided and influenced by different paradigms.

In a similar fashion I believe that when different “wiring” is combined with right speech the dharma is made more compassionate, wise and skillful; more likely to lead to the end of suffering.

When done well – in the way I imagine the Buddha envisioned it – this activity we engage in, this written exchange is a noble one.

@anon29387788 thank you for your kind words. Fortunately I missed your original reply. :hushed: (I want an emoji for irony! ) tee hee

4 Likes

:cherry_blossom: and thank you for yours :pray:t6: :cherry_blossom:

2 Likes

Great thread (the accounts of various rebirth experiences were very interesting)! I think it was brave by Matt to kick off those accounts! :slight_smile: Presumably a reasonable percentage of monastics do have experiences of this nature, but due to Vinaya rules aren’t permitted to recount them, so it was nice to see some accounts of different types from some experienced lay practitioners. :anjal:

6 Likes

Hi Kay,
Thank you for great thread.
The idea of rebirth is terrifying to me. In my early life as a child and teenager I have experienced allot of violence of different kind. Today I understand that I might done harm to those people in my previous life and this was result of my karma. I don’t feel like victim any more I found way to have peace with it. But I have enormous fear to experience that again and honestly it’s one of my biggest motivation to practice. I have absolute confidence in Buddha’s teachings and enormous gratitude to him for leaving to us great recipe for Liberation.
With metta, :blush:

13 Likes

I’ve experienced this myself- it is not always the case, but when it is, it is good to know the kamma which lead to the kammic reaction. It makes sense of something which can seem senseless. I also get much relief from knowing it is being ‘worked through’. This is not to excuse bad things being done to me - not at all. Those require stern action. Some things, when they keep repeatedly happening ie.- there is a a repetitive pattern to it, I can find a connection in past kamma. It also makes me think twice, now, about doing negative acts so it helps me practice. Dr. Ian Stevenson also came across some karmic events in his research, I believe.

with metta

5 Likes

Hi Mat,
Thank you for your kind words.

3 Likes

You are more than welcome.

with metta

1 Like

Hi Lola :rosette: :slight_smile:

It’s lovely to hear from you. I really appreciate this perspective; thanks so much for sharing this with all of us.

This is just so true.

I often feel that to truly imagine what it means to not only do all this over again, but to have the possibility of things being so out of control - so annica and so anatta - that the overwhelming sense of suffering hits where we feel it most usefully, requires us to really try and put ourselves in the shoes of someone who not only believes in rebirth, but also accepts it with a degree of openness that can only come from genuine experience of it. It’s easy for those who have some direct experience, that’s for sure. When you know a thing, the quality of the experience has no doubt attached to it. But for the rest of us, we need to imagine…we need to play a game of what would my world, my life be like if this were true. For me, practising with an acceptance of rebirth, a deliberate imagining of the possible ramifications, means that I am making myself sure on two counts: 1. there isn’t any after life, 2. there is an afterlife. Imagining rebirth to be real and acting through the lens of this imagination keeps me safe regardless of the reality.

Whereas the opposite path, if I imagine it, for me personally, allows me a great deal more relaxation as far as my more worldly tendencies go - and of course, this is a slippery slope leading, ultimately, to greater difficulty and discomfort. And if rebirth is real, practising as if it isn’t, to me, just doesn’t go deep enough for me personally; in a sense I feel that to Practise with the absence of the very acceptance of rebirth into one’s view, will be like putting obstacles in front of me, like stopping myself from tasting and experiencing some of the results that arise through simply cultivating this view (never mind actually experiencing it to be a truth!); it’s, for me, like I’d be selling myself short, like I was not allowing myself to look through particular windows and take in the vistas they offer and allow these to nourish my very ways of being. It’s like I am closing down my options; like I’m closing off even the possibility of experiencing any other paradigm than the one I am currently within. If you don’t even look in the direction that the Buddha is pointing in, if you don’t even look/imagine, you will never give yourself the chance to see it for yourself, for real. First you have to look, to engage meaningfully, not combatively, with the View He’s offering; that’s why Right View comes first in the 8 Fold Path; it shapes all the entire sequence of the rest of the 7 factors. I know I can get too caught up in the linear-ness of the Path - because it often loops back and leap frogs - but the linear quality is I think an over-riding pattern of great relevance.

Many of the contributions to this thread are truly examples of how imagining a deep acceptance of rebirth can affect us and I think Lola has shown this again very beautifully. Thank you again Lola. :heartpulse::pray:t6:

One of the things I learned by looking at anatta as a lack of control and dependent origination as a process that can only be seen in it’s entirety over a span of three lives (the immediate past, the present one and the immediate future life) is that I have learned to relax more…because I am beginning to see that all I can do is kindly and patiently put in the causes for the 8 Fold Path to Slowly blossom. However, the motivation to Practise is also rather heightened; only as I go on, it becomes the motivation to learn how to relax on many wonderful levels. I feel like I’m such a novice. But my confidence in this Path just grows. It just works and serves me so much. Learning to View anatta and dependent origination within the context of rebirth and kamma, as motivating as it is, also has taught me to experience forgiveness and ease, especially for myself; it’s fostered understanding for myself in a way that I could never have expected before - the implications for forgiveness for myself have been rather huge.

It’s such a wonderful Path Lola, I feel so much mudita for your opportunity of growing within it; thank you so very much for sharing your thoughts and feelings. :heartpulse: :heartpulse: :cherry_blossom: :heartpulse: :hibiscus: :heartpulse: :cherry_blossom: :heartpulse: :hibiscus: :heartpulse: :cherry_blossom: :heartpulse::heartpulse:


I do also want to offer my apologies if anything I’ve said is too challenging or even too completely opposite to what you (here, I don’t just mean Lola :slight_smile: , but any other reader) may see as true - it is not my intention to offend. It is difficult sometimes to share who we are and how we see the world, without saying something that’s directly in opposition to someone else’s view. My apologies and of course, this is just a sharing of views and so please, of course, only take what you find of use and leave the rest behind.

With much metta, :heartpulse:

9 Likes