Regarding the belief of academics that the Buddha taught Mahayana sutras etc

:slight_smile: i glanced, but 
 i am not a big consumer of what i think those would be
 I think it would be difficult to avoid taking on an audience role
 which is incongruent with the spiritual practice i do at this time. But thank you for sharing; is it of benefit to you?

Metta etc.

I don’t know if Peace Pilgrim spoke of living in Christ; was that something you found? i suppose that is possible, but i know her definitions of god or christ would probably have to be defined as other than christian
 though she was noted for non offensive ability to connect well with apparently anyone. :slight_smile:

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Very nice stuff @Jayarava

As a Zen practicioner I always have to fight nowadays even “Mahayana” buddhist that seem to secretly been converted to Tendai, yet not have the courage to change their tags of Zen and Mahayana (for obvious prestige reasons), about the differences of Mahayana and Hinayana. If I mention the Mahayana sutras calling the inferior way like “rotten seed” and only the bodhisattva way leads to Nirvana, there only one way etc. I get censored in even Mahayana/Zen subs. They adhere to the Hinayana, because they can’t understand the Mahayana, yet they have to put Mahayana word and ignore the contradictions.

In my opinion and I studied this quite a bit by now, there is a special effect towards what you call “It’s complexity looks like consistency to one who has no understanding. The religious mindset smoothes over inconsistencies using hermeneutic and exegetical strategies - ignoring and explaining away inconvenient truths.” which comes from the effect that heavy suppression has on the brain. Heavy suppression hereby being the constant concentration on the mind and forcefully repressing thoughts and emotions, this of course intensified under meditation in sitting positions (that is why they attach to the sitting so much, of course right sitting does not have that effect, at least not to that extent). This leads to an antidepressive effect, where the amygdala overstimulates.

>Mindfulness training has been found to increase prefrontal control over the limbic system and amygdala, which is associated with improved emotion regulation, anxiety, depression and emotional reactivity [22,32]. However, high levels of prefrontal control of the amygdala can be associated with global emotional blunting and dissociation [33]. Indeed, meditation-induced dampening of the amygdala has been found to attenuate not just negative emotions but positive ones as well [34,35]. Multiple studies have found that mindfulness meditation training can result in reduced intensity, blunting, or complete loss of both positive and negative emotions and dissociation in some people [9,12,33,34,36].

[Can Mindfulness Be Too Much of a Good Thing? The Value of a Middle Way](https://pmc.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/articles/PMC6612475/)

If you now question what this dampening of the amygdala looks like, exactly that, smoothing of the words. They loose the emotional distinguishing abilites of words and easily put every word under one big extreme. They use temporary upaya words, like “it is not about words” for everytime, they can’t argue anymore in debates. The amydgala also is involved in how you percieve and interprete situations, this impacts the outwards reflection and also the self reflection. They become ignorant without knowing this. This is then called a spiritual ego. This is e.g. seen in TNH and the article “Letting go of my father” in which he can be seen litigous, hypocritical and manipulative, not to speak of how he glorified suicide. Speaking with these people becomes senseless, if they don’t stop repressing their thoughts. Because that leads to them being literally unable to comprehend. If you misunderstand the buddhist tradition, which the buddha, if we can believe the Mahayana Sutras, knew, you will fall for that what we in Zen call “dead Zen”. You will feel well in that. It is an antidepressive for a depressive man. But it won’t lead to a Bodhisattva but an automatically egoistic path, since you will filter out, everything that is happening around you. You will become quite literally numb to the emotions of the world. Thus you can’t help others fully, like a bodhisattva can. There is a reason we in Mahayana call that the egoistic way. But nowadays Zennist and Mahayanists are truly no Zennies or Mahayanis no more. The way has become shallow and not present anymore. I found one legit buddhist. Which is Guido from his publishing company Angkor. He is one of the german Zen book publishers. He got me through. I very much doubt that anything in asia survived. I looked at it all.

In a Kassel experiment students that watched an animal cruelty film got afterwards tested on empathy parameters. The ones that practiced mindfulness before had afterwards less intention to change their behavior regarding meat consumption. There is a reason that those people attach to these precepts, because their moral dampens. Mahayana Sutras already state, he seems to be breaking the commandments, yet he reamins unmoved in them. Mahayana Sutras contain a lot of truth, yet also have unneeded dogma at times, that you can refute through the Mahayana sutras if you read them carefully. If you are just a repressionist though and only there to ignore contradictions, the Mahayana and also Zen will also be a resting point for you, but only the demon cave most fell in, there is a reason why the Buddha alledgedly did not want to teach at first, the overpresence of false teachers and students is described all throughout the Zen tradition, funny, because Zen was first brought up in challenge of those who got it wrong. It became infiltrated itself very soon and the biggest culprit for that were the people that never searched for Zen, but only to suppress their thoughts and never actually help the world at all. As I can only laugh in vain of those, that destroyed our tradition and the one and only meaning of our texts.

If they only could hear my MU, they would see, how much I am right.

Dogen is associated with Tendai Buddhism. Certain Buddhologists or scholars have come to the theory of Dogen not being a Zen Master at all nor that he presented himself as such. According to them, Dogen never presented himself as a Zen master but as a “general” Dharma master. This also explains his later criticism of the other four Zen schools, which, like Shikantaza or his concepts of Nirvana , could not have originated from his supposed Chinese master. Dogen read the Hinayana texts and espoused values ​​foreign to Zen, such as the notion that monasticism was superior to lay life, just as Zazen was necessary for or synonymous with enlightenment. Even in the Vimalakirti Sutra , Shariputra is reprimanded for his erroneous understanding that meditation was synonymous with sitting. Following Linji’s logic, “we do not practice seated meditation, we do not read scriptures.”

Further inconsistencies arise in buddhological history, where Dogen demonstrably reinterpreted events to fit his own views.

Carl Bielefeldt’s “Recarving the Dragon: History and Dogma in the Study of Dogen” - Summary (Oregon University)

Carl Bielefeldt delves into the life and teachings of Dogen, raising critical questions regarding the origins of his beliefs and the changes they underwent. The reader is asked not to blindly accept Dogen as a Zen master and founder of the Soto school but instead to reevaluate conceptions of Dogen to determine his true place and importance in Zen history.

Dogen is one of the more obscure Zen masters due to the small size of the Soto school in Medieval Japan and the lack of focus on him by modern scholars. The conventional hagiography (sacred biography) of Dogen contends that as a novice, Dogen was concerned with “the question of how to understand Buddhist practice, given the Mahayana doctrine of inherent enlightenment” (25). To answer this, he embarked on a religious search that led him to China where he met the master Ju-ching who imparted to him the shobo genzo , or the true Buddhism that has been preserved from the time of Sakyamuni himself (26). From Ju-ching, Dogen also found the answer to his question on enlightenment - the meditation of just sitting . In this practice, one “abandons his conscious efforts to acquire Buddhahood, sloughs [drops] off body and mind, and abides in his inherent enlightenment” (26). It is in this practice that Dogen’s teachings differ from other Zen schools. Dogen brought these ideas back to Japan and founded the Soto school.

However, upon deeper inspection, there is little historical evidence to prove that Dogen actually learned from Ju-ching or that Ju-ching was an important Zen figure at all. And in his early writings, Dogen hardly cites his Chinese master or holds him up as a special figure. In fact, he places equal emphasis on the importance of all five houses of Zen, including that of Lin-chi, a supposed rival of Ju-ching (whom Dogen later criticizes greatly). Yet, Dogen’s ideas change markedly over the course of his ministry, and Ju-ching is praised later on, held up as the only transmitter of the true dharma. It was over a decade after his return to Japan that Dogen changed his beliefs and began pitting his school against the Lin-chi tradition.

One explanation for this change asserts that Dogen was merely becoming more enlightened the more he practiced; thus, his understanding of Zen developed and his teachings reflected that (39). Another idea asserts that a copy of Ju-ching’s sayings arrived in Japan at this time, and Dogen was so upset with the lack of understanding of his master’s principles shown in document form that he realized he was the only preserver of the true dharma, and it was up to him alone to share it with others (39).

Dogen also changed his notions on laymen and Buddhism. In his later writings, he asserts that the laity cannot be saved because there are too many obstacles and distractions in the lay life. This change may have come about due to the narrowing scope of his audience over time. Dogen chose to move to a smaller community, taking a band of outcast Rinzai (the more popular form of Zen at the time) monks with him, several from the Daruma school; thus, he no longer had to appeal to a lay audience.

These changes in Dogen’s beliefs and his seeming distance from his master’s ideals raise significant questions about the ideology of the shobo genzo . If he received the true dharma, then why did his teachings change? And because Dogen’s followers didn’t adhere to all that he taught (they were influenced by the rival Rinzai tradition), Dogen didn’t do an adequate job of passing the shobo genzo along. Thus, Dogen must be carefully scrutinized before he can be labeled as a leading Zen master.

Dogen was a little-known Zen master who only experienced a resurgence in popularity around 1700. This is roughly the same time when the last authentic Chinese masters disappeared. Inconsistencies in Dogen’s Writings - David Putney:

(11) “Ippyakuhachi homyo-mon” (One Hundred and Eight Ways to Enlightenment)(61) is a compendium of 108 types of practice or ways to enlightenment both Early Buddhist and Mahaayaana.(62) (12) “Hachi dainingaku” (Eight Key Elements of Buddhist Practice) is the last writing of Dogen,(63) and consists of eight Buddhist virtues to be cultivated by the practitioner.(64) These, he says, are the “storehouse of wisdom of the True Dharma” (65) (shobogenzo). These two fascicles seem to confirm that Dogen saw himself as teaching the Buddha Dharma and not any particular sect of Buddhism. Both of these fascicles, and indeed all of the twelve fascicles, lack any reference to the typical Kamakura appeal to one single practice, including Dogen’s own shikan taza.(66) It seems clear that from Dogen’s middle period onward, shikan taza was one among a complex of practices, especially in the context of the monastic life, which Dogen emphasized.

Dogen may have understood something about emptiness , but nothing about using it in everyday life.

These days, you have to be careful about your sources.

Charles Luk draws attention to the spread of inauthentic Mahayana and Zen texts, which obscure the picture and are probably significantly involved in the confusion surrounding the Buddha’s highest path.

Dogen on Buddha Nature:

First, rejecting all existing forms of Buddhism in Japan as unauthentic, he attempted to introduce and establish what he believed to be the genuine Buddhism, based on his own realization which he attained in Sung China under the guidance of the Zen Master Ju-ching (Nyojƍ, 1163-1228). He called it “the Buddha Dharma directly transmitted from the Buddha and patriarchs.” He emphasized zazen[1](seated meditation) as being “the right entrance to the Buddha Dharma” in the tradition of the Zen schools in China since Bodhidharma, originating from ƚākyamuni Buddha. Yet he strictly refused to speak of a “Zen sect,” to say nothing of a “Sƍtƍ sect,” that he was later credited with founding. For Dƍgen was concerned solely with the “right Dharma,” and regarded zazen as its “right entrance.” "Who has used the name ‘Zen sect’? No buddha or patriarch spoke of a ‘Zen sect.’ You should realize it is a devil that speaks of ‘Zen sect.’ Those who pronounce a devil’s appellation must be confederates of the devil, not children of the Buddha.",[2]He called himself “the Dharma transmitter Shamon Dƍgen who went to China”[3]with strong conviction that he had attained the authentic Dharma that is directly transmitted from buddha to buddha, and that he should transplant it on Japanese soil. Thus he rejected the idea of mappo[4], i.e., the last or degenerate Dharma, an idea with wide acceptance in the Japanese Buddhism of his day. It may not be too much to say of Dƍgen that just as Bodhidharma transmitted the Buddha Dharma to China, he intended to transmit it to Japan.

I have to disappoint Dogen here, because most of the masters spoke of the Zen sect. However, he hadn’t understood this, which is why he also had to oppose the other Zen schools and probably didn’t even want to belong to the Soto anymore. Ishii Shudo also says that Dogen, as a Dharma master, didn’t see himself as the founder of a sect, let alone as part of the Zen sect.

As with a TNH, this whole Zen master thing seems to be a later invention of the Sangha , to maintain prestige and reputation in the world.

To quote Hisamatsu:

“Truly immense are the offenses of these false masters! Truly painful is the illusion of their students! They do not even notice that they are sitting together in the error of their false egotism, and that as they strive for their own profit and personal welfare they are doubly mistaken.”

Dogen’s opinions diverged from the moment he admitted the persecuted and marginalized Daruma-Shu “Zen” students into his Sangha, with whom he then retreated to the monastery. Only then did he begin attacking lay practitioners and other Zen schools.

Review - Dogen Studies:

Bielefeldt addresses two major issues with Dogen studies, the first of which is the sectarian bias of the Soto school (and D.T. Suzuki’s lingering influences) as well as those of Dogen himself. This presents itself primarily through liberties taken when interpreting history. The gist of this issue is that oftentimes Soto monks, as well as Dogen, restructured historical events or interpretations to support the legitimacy of a certain aspect of doctrine. This, of course, makes the study of Zen history problematic, to say the very least! One of the most notable cases is that of Dogen’s rendering of the teacher under whom he attained enlightenment, Ju-ching. Dogen’s account of Ju-ching seems to pick up near mythological characteristics as Dogen constructed a telling of the past that would support the supremacy of his doctrine and, more importantly, the future of his doctrine.

The second issue Bielefeldt addresses concerns how Dogen’s ideas and positions changed over his monastic career as he responded to different influences. These changes draw tremendous attention to the challenges faced by Dogen as well as Dogen’s agendas. The theme Bielefeldt really picks up on here is how Dogen grew more and more exclusive later in his career, seemingly becoming less content with being but one path among many. For example, in early Dogen, he is clearly open toward the authentic nature of the five orthodox houses of Zen whereas later in his career, he stresses the supremacy of his own rendering of Zen and labels the other schools as heterodox and grossly inferior. Next, even though Dogen was taught in the tradition of Lin-chi under Myozen and began his Japanese monastic career after his enlightenment at a Lin-chi monastery, Kennin-ji, he began to attack Lin-chi quite openly. Bielefeldt notes that he did so some time after adopting the former followers of Nonin’s Daruma school. Dogen also reversed his position on the possibility of awakening for both monks and the laity. He originally embraced the notion that both could awaken whereas later he adopted the principle that only monks had a shot.

Among others, Pang and Vimalakirti are both considered accomplished lay Buddhists in Zen/Mahayana.

Wikipedia - Daruma-Shu (translated)

The Zen of Daruma-shĆ« was determined by two sources: on the one hand, the Linji-zong lineage transmitted by Zhuoan Deguang, which, like the later Rinzai-shĆ«, was based on kanna-zen (看話çŠȘ), i.e., the preferred use of Kƍan; and on the other hand, the syncretic meditation doctrine of Tendai-shĆ«, which was based on Saichƍ’s traditions of Tiantai zong as well as his studies with Xiuran (Chinese äżźç„¶, Pinyin XiĆ«rĂĄn, W.-G. Hsiu-jan), a representative of the Ox-Head School[23] or Northern School[22] of Chinese Chan from the years 804/5.

Bodhidharma made it clear very early on that a mixing of traditions was not desirable. Just as the Buddha said, one should only read the Mahayana sutras ; only that is the highest path.

Dogen is not a Zen master, never presented himself as such, and does not agree with any authentic master before him; indeed, he criticizes and rejects them. His teachings resemble those of a Tendai master, a Buddhist tradition to which Dogen belonged and in which he studied. This example illustrates what happens when one mixes things against which the Buddha himself warned, and how the masses perpetuate the lie.

(I wrote this in my mother tongue and ran it through gt, so excuse minor word mistakes)

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Thanks for the reference to Carl Bielefeldt’s “Recarving the Dragon: History and Dogma in the Study of Dogen”. I need to find a copy!

I wrote recently about what I perceive to be the source of the confusion–what passes for enlightenment in the Zen traditions is actually not enlightenment as Gautama described it. Gautama’s enlightenment entailed the complete destruction of the three asavas, and while it’s true that in many sermons he outlines arriving at his enlightenment in the fourth concentration, it’s not true that any attainment in concentration, the fourth or otherwise, confers enlightenment (according to MN 70).

From One Way or Another, under “Zazen Notes” on my own site–note that the “five limbs of concentration” are the four concentrations Gautama numbered plus the survey-sign, the overview of the body taken after the fourth concentration:

There are many different schools of Buddhism. Nevertheless, I would guess that most respected Buddhist teachers experience “the five limbs” of concentration regularly (even though they may not describe their experience as such), and most practice a mindfulness very much like the mindfulness that made up Gautama’s way of living.

They do so in part because, as Gautama said, that mindfulness:


 if cultivated and made much of, is something peaceful and choice, something perfect in itself, and a pleasant way of living too.

(SN 54.9, tr. PTS SN vol. V p 285)

By Gautama’s own admission, enlightenment is not required to enjoy that “pleasant way of living”:

Formerly
 before I myself was enlightened with the perfect wisdom, and was yet a Bodhisattva, I used generally to spend my time in this way of living.

(SN 54.8; tr. PTS vol. V p 280: “the Tathagatha’s way of life”, 289)

If a person can exhibit a mindfulness like Gautama’s without having become enlightened, and can have “seen by means of wisdom” without having completely destroyed the cankers (see MN 70), then how can one know who to trust as a teacher?

Gautama’s advice was to go by the words of the teacher rather than any claim to authority, to compare the instructions of a teacher to the sermons Gautama himself had given and to the rules of the order that Gautama himself had laid down (DN 16 PTS vol. ii pp 133-136).

Nevertheless, activity solely by virtue of the free location of consciousness, the hallmark of the fourth concentration, has been conveyed by demonstration in some branches of Buddhism for millennia. The transmission of a central part of the teaching through such conveyance, and the certification of that transmission by the presiding teacher, is regarded by some schools as the only guarantee of the authenticity of a teacher.

The teachers so authenticated have in many cases disappointed their students, when circumstances revealed that the teacher’s cankers had not been completely destroyed. Furthermore, some schools appear to have certified transmission without the conveyance that has kept the tradition alive, perhaps for the sake of the continuation of the school.

Gautama himself refused to name a successor (DN 16, PTS vol. ii p 107).

Dogen’s concern was that transmission of the hallmark of the fourth concentration, what Gautama termed “the cessation of inhalation and exhalation”, should not cease.

In my latest write, I described shikantaza, yet I was also describing “the cessation of inhalation and exhalation”. which is not the cessation of the movement of breath but only the cessation of volition and habit in the activity of the body in the movement of breath:

I would say the activity of the body in the fourth concentration is entirely “reflex movement” occasioned by the placement of attention. To remain awake as the location of attention shifts and activity of the body takes place is “just to sit”.

That can take a special effort, as I wrote previously:

The transition to activity solely by virtue of the free location of consciousness can involve a leap of faith, as Dogen pointed out:

Suppose that you have climbed to the top of a hundred-foot pole, and are told to let go and advance one step further without holding bodily life dear. In such a situation, if you say that you can practice the Buddha-Way only when you are alive, you are not really following your teacher. Consider this carefully. (“Shobogenzo-zuimonki: Sayings of Eihei Dogen Zenji, recorded by Koun Ejo”, 1-13, tr Shohaku Okumura, Soto-Shu Shumucho p 45-46)

Complete relinquishment of volitive activity in the body involves letting go of the activity of breath while yet conscious of the need to inhale and exhale. That can feel like letting go of life itself.

(Applying the Pali Instructions)

A post was merged into an existing topic: Dogen was never a Zen Master nor the founder or a part of the Zen sect

I also refer to Foyan here who said “becoming a refined indidivudal without enlightenment” he also said “before enlightenment it is like gold after it is like dung”. But then again we also have Baizhang claiming that you would need to have enlightenment even before you have the right practice. Generally I think, since we have all these persecutions and in the emnient monks collection we have an indication that (if he existed) Bodhidharma got executed as well as Huike got executed, what I want to say is (also seeing all the general persecutions and wars affecting buddhist life) that there needed to be a justification for a Zen lineage to persist in china. The general society believed in them having magical abilities and them relying on donations and later on (at least what I know of) in Linji’s time on government support (building monasteries etc.) they also needed to offer something that humans could use in some way (dont know how to frame it better here). If it is true, that Bodhidharma went to the emperor and just told him “nothing holy” and later on got executed, then this is an example of this. People will ask of what use it is and what is the justification for your ideology to spread, for you to become hermit groups in the mountains and opposing existing buddhist factions (what was also a reason why Huike got executed, as Yogacara priests tried to assasinate them with the support of the government). The enlightenment story then “the saving from suffering”, the aquiring of magical powers (which was not really made up by masters at all though) then was kind of a protection for their legacy. Would Zen have survived if the masters just claimed, it is not about dogmas? We know that emperors always and always want only what they control. So they only accept your ideology as long as you have some religious dogma in it. The precepts and vinaya for example got forced onto the zen monasteries by the emperors through e.g. Tendai ideology. Governments are build to control the people, not to let them have freedom. It is no wonder that the Zen tradition then already was so wiped out after the mongolian invasion, that basically today in china being a “Linji” or Zen monk, means nothing more then being a buddhist monk (see Urs App on this). This can for example be seen already in Dogen, or in modern times “Taixu” who together with the political party just stole an abbot his monastery and is said to be a linji monk, yet only practiced some “Maitreya” teaching. As well as TNH who openly said, that he practiced original buddhism with a Mahayana spirit, yet the times he even mentions Zen are almost 0. Buddhologists also proved, that he never was a Zen master at all, also people in his following know, this is just an invention by the sangha, the same can count for Dogen.

The Lotus Sutra even indicates that enlightenment shall be kind of used as a bait


To get the frame right what it is about in Zen we have many statements and teachings going the right direction:

Vimalakirti said, without entering Nirvana, he walks under Arhats and prateyka buddhas but preaches a way never heard before

The logic here is clear, if the Buddha claimed the Bodhisattva way the highest and only the Bodhisattva way leads to Nirvana and there is only this way that is right and that he wants to teach in the end and adding to that a Bodhisattva (see Vimalakirti) does not enter Nirvana, then also the highest of the paths (Bodhisattva-path) can’t be a means to end suffering at all, since you don’t enter Nirvana (nor I believe that it would be possible to have the option to just “enter Nirvana” whatever that shall be or look like).

It is also interesting, that in authentic sources all over the Zen and Chan tradition, it is never the talk about any 8fould path, yet in the Mahayana Sutras it is mentioned here and there. Yet also we find statements like a Bodhisattva practices the practice of no practice. Or he is seen to break commandments but remains unmoved in them, which also plays along with the Zen tradition. Seeing Linji:"You say, ‘The six pāramitās and the ten thousand [virtuous] actions are all to be practiced.’ As I see it, all this is just making karma.” To practice away from dogma, automatically also means neglecting a 8fould path. Which was just taken as a given fact throughout the Zen tradition.

Ying-an:

In recent times seekers of the Way mostly hold their own views to be ultimate truth; they don’t believe there is something better. As soon as they enter an authentic forge, then they search without seeing. Because they haven’t met anyone, after all, their attainment is crude, and they sit in nests of gain and loss, apprehensive lest people disturb them, fearful of losing their Chan. Some say: ‘My view is altogether right, when elders say it’s not, they’re just using psychology to trap me and jerk me around:’ This is a mortal illness.

They sit in their emptiness, which is a psychologic effect of suppression. Their emptiness is a feeling of actual numbing of thought and emotion.

One master once said, prajnaparamita is reality NOT emptiness.

Ching-su said, “This may have gained you entrance into the realm of the Buddhas, but it will never bring you beyond the gates of Mara’s realm.”, another saying goes “Clearing the mind of nirvana is easy, but entering the wisdom of discrimination is difficult.” (Nehan no kokoro wa akirame yasuku, sabetsu no chi wa iriga tashi.)

Here we have it. Enlightenment is easy, you may have gained entrance to it, yet it won’t get you beyond Mara’s realm/ it is not yet the wisdom of discrimination.

And this wisdom of discrimination is what differs Zen from a random psychonaut who experienced ego-death on a high dose lsd trip. And yes, it also makes you very Zen if you never had experienced this “ego-death”. Especially if you make the theory that the reason for the long sittings and sesshins is, that it induces similar effects to these hallucinogenics and this is maybe a factor that favors awakening. Since that comes with a lot of pain and can also can give you a “break-through” in a different way, one should be careful. The highest way is not achieved by climbing the mountain, the way to the mountain is the goal and maybe there are many ways to some mountain, but only one way that is worth going and with that way you can choose any destination.

(It is also always possible that people wrote down words from e.g. Baizhang on enlightenment in a favor that supported their view. Since Zen masters from early on said that e.g. out 1000 only one or a half gets it, it could be very well possible that authors of Zen teachings were heavily biased in their own lack of understanding.)

Of course precepts, Zazen and all that is useful in a monastery environment and especially for beginners, yet what Masters (e.g. Dahui) always made clear is, it is Upaya. Skillfull means. And this skillfull means is not for the enlightenment, but also for the right practice. People don’t understand that. The Koans don’t want to make you enlightened, but also give you the real fruit of buddhism, the practice of a bodhisattva, that what is called the straightforward mind (Vimalakirti/Huineng).

Hisamatsu said it very well.

Phillips: “If you follow any way, you will never get there; and if you do not follow any way, you will never get there. So one faces a dilemma.”
Hisamatsu: “Let that dilemma be your way! (i.e., it is that very dilemma that is the way you must follow!) [Zen Master Yunmen, Urs App]

People fail to make the dilemma of the Koans their way, their marrow. They think if Huangpo says that you shall make Mu your 24/7 marrow in everything you do, that this would be pointed towards the goal of enlightenment. No it is pointed towards the goal of actually making Mu 24/7 your marrow.

We call this studying from prajna. Ultimately you need to let go of all Upaya.

I would recommend “Battle for the Mind”, by Sargant, to you. The title in full, from Amazon:

Battle for the Mind: A Physiology of Conversion and Brainwashing - How Evangelists, Psychiatrists, Politicians, and Medicine Men Can Change Your Beliefs and Behavior

Sargant is a bit controversial, for having been the psychiatrist who emphasized electro-shock therapy in England mid-twentieth century, but the book is especially interesting for his insights into the conversion experience.

I read “Three Pillars of Zen” seven years after I read “Battle for the Mind”, and was struck that the kensho experiences of the three men in that book were very much like the conversions Sargant described.

I found some support for that take in “Zen Teaching, Zen Practice: Philip Kapleau And The Three Pillars Of Zen“, edited by Kenneth Kraft, a book that seems to have mysteriously disappeared off Google search results but which is reviewed here:

That review says in part:

Zen Teaching, Zen Practice is edited by Kenneth Kraft, who also wrote the interesting Introduction. Kraft points out that Kapleau’s book is “in large measure a book about kensho” (p.14) which in itself is problematic as for many, including some of the authors of the essays, this led to “inflated expectations
 [and] [t]he discrepancy between anticipatory visions of enlightenment and actual experiences of insight”. (p.15) This disjuncture between what Kapleau wrote and the actual experiences of Zen students has led to some criticisms of The Three Pillars of Zen as a book that gives an unrealistic picture of what to expect from zazen. The reality is, of course, that zazen and Zen practice do not necessarily lead to kensho or satori for all but Kapleau’s book raised the expectation that arduous practice would inevitably lead to enlightenment. For many, if not most Zen students, just how difficult the practice is and how committed one must be came as a shock and, inevitably for some, a disappointment.

There would be no argument, I think, if we talked about what is unique in the teachings attributed to Gautama the Shakyan rather than the historicity of the texts that contain those teachings.

I’ll start! :wink:

  1. the four concentrations that Gautama numbered, characterized by equanimity with respect to the multiplicity of the senses, and the additional concentrations he described, characterized by uniformity with respect to the multiplicity of the senses (sorry, I can’t recall the source of those characterizations at the moment);

  2. his association of “one-pointedness” with concentration (MN 117);

  3. his story of his study under the teachers of his day, and his attainment of a concentration beyond what they taught, accompanied by his enlightenment (MN 26); likewise, his story of his attainment of enlightenment while in the fourth concentration (as in DN 2), and likewise his disavowal of the connection between the attainment of a concentration beyond what his teachers taught and enlightenment (MN 70).

  4. the record of the suicides of scores of monks a day in SN 54.9 (also repeated somewhere in the Vinaya, I believe) and Gautama’s subsequent teaching of the mindfulness that he himself practiced, both before (SN 54.8) and after (SN 54.11?) his enlightenment (the mindfulness in MN 118, as well).

These things I take to be unique to the Pali sermons, and it doesn’t matter to me how they came to be there. They are peculiar, in their seeming contradictory nature. Such is not to be found in any of the Buddhist literature afterward, to my knowledge.

Zen of course emphasizes a person to person communication of a particular experience, outside of scripture. I would contend it’s the induction of the fourth concentration, and perhaps some introduction to the concentrations characterized by uniformity (in Japan), yet I think it’s clear that whatever it is does not require the complete destructions of the cankers (asavas), and that is the key charateristic of enlightenment, per Gautama in MN 70.

They do it like that in Zen because we all get so attached to the ease of the first three concentrations that when we reach the top of the hundred foot pole, we fail to advance one step futher.

Do I believe there was somebody, that the tales in the first four Nikayas are sometimes so strange as to be in the category of “truth is stranger than fiction” and “you can’t make this stuff up”?–you bet!

I should add, that A. K. Warder in his “Indian Buddhism” states that the reason the first schism in the order took place was that the disagreement over whether or not an arahant could be seduced by a succubus (have a wet dream) couldn’t be resolved (pp 217-218).

All that flowery language about saving all beings before saving oneself–giving oneself permission to have a wet dream, in service to humanity?

I’m tellin’ ya, ya can’t make this stuff up!

I don’t know man, I rarely (I don’t) encounter modern Zen or Buddhism that would impress me at all. We live in the end age of buddhism, wasn’t it so? Hakuin said, let the 5 piece Zen flower blossom once again. Indicating, that it has been almost done already (and since 1700 some times has passed). He must have felt great sorrow as the chinese came over and presented him this mixture of all kinds of buddhism, but not the way he respected. He made that very clear, in very precise speak. For all those who claim that talking harshly is not up to date anymore for Zen practicioners. The “Zen spirit” rarely visits anyone anymore as of todays time. I wish there will be someone honest enough for this way. May this flower blossom once more.

As I would frame it, enlightenment is Upaya.

Anyways, I wrote enough. It is not like that those who would search truly, could not find it at all.

As when I try to make known the teaching, I only oppose Zen or buddhists, whose denial has almost become like a dogma of faith. It is not like they would bless with me with arguments. No wonder the Masters did not hold back in vile talk. Understanding Zen is extremly frustrating, now more than ever.

I also don’t blame anyone who has a healthy relationship. The stories of Masters having sexual relationships is not that low. And also, I don’t think you could say that there aren’t stories that never went public.

In buddhism it is needed to understand that many things are done because the society and government has an eye on it. Else, as soon as the Vinaya states, that people with grown together eyebrows could not join, I would stop studying it (not that I would study it ;D). The religious Buddha, e.g. the one that is portrayed in MN117 is just one of the versions of Buddha, that has been created over the time.

You idealize the Bodhisattva to much. Practice may let you have some more control over desires, yet one is not desire free.

I know that there from time to time (as a Zen buddhist I have this opinion) is some worth words in the Hinayana (while the majority is not). The only reference I have ever read by a authentic Zen Master about the Hinayana, was this:

“As it says in the Dhammapada: If you preach the Dharma of ‘good intention’, you do so out of self-deception. Without self-deception, there is no ‘good’ or ‘good intention’. If you can experience the mind without delusion, then true good intention knows no bounds.” [Wuxiang]



“However, if you maintain mindfulness, even blaspheming Buddhas is still true practice”, The Chinese master Zibo Zhenke

“it is impossible to escape experiencing consequences”, “Feeling and nature exist in beings always, as ever. When you try to find them out, you cannot grasp them; even if you try to cut them off, they do not end”, Ming-Chiao

***

Hsiu-ching of Hua-yen said to the Master, “I am without a proper path. I still can’t escape the vicissitudes of feelings and discriminating consciousness.”

“Do you still think there is such a path?” asked the Master.

“No, I don’t think there is any such path,” answered Hua-yen.

“Where did you get your feelings and discriminating consciousness?” asked the Master.

“I am asking you that in all seriousness,” said Hua-yen.

“In that case, you should go to a place where there is not an inch of grass for ten thousand li,” said the Master.

“Is it all right go to a place where there is not an inch of grass for ten thousand li?” asked Hua-yen.

“You should only go in such a way,” replied the Master

The Record of Tung-shan, William F. Powell

Chi Ch’eng, the Ch’an Shout, I have heard that a mere Ch’an shout can turn worldlings into saints; this seems to contradict the sutras and treatises

A dharma master said:
‘The Buddha set up a Dharma which consists in wiping out gradually, from the stage of Hinayana to that of Perfect Teaching, all concepts of is and is not to realise permanence for the achievement of myriads of sublime virtues and the final attainment of Buddhahood. I have heard that a mere Ch’an shout can turn worldlings into saints; this seems to contradict the sutras and treatises. If a shout can pass through all the five stages of our Hua Yen School, I shall concede that it is right, otherwise it is just heresy.’

Chi Ch’eng answered:

“As to our sect’s One Shout, it can pass through not only these five Hua Yen stages, but also all kinds of arts, crafts and philosophies.'”

What does all your concentration, all your build up techniques, all your Upayas, all you gather up, all you learned on the sitting bench get you, if you can’t shout and challenge the world?