Saṅgāravasutta - translation change

Some time ago, I took this snapshot of Bhikku Sujato’s remarkable translation:


but today when I went to try and find it, I found that the translation had changed:

“When asked ‘Do gods survive’, whether you reply ‘Gods survive’ or ‘I’ve understood in terms of causes’ a sensible person would come to the categorical conclusion in this matter that gods survive.”
“But why didn’t you say that in the first place?”
“It is agreed by the eminent in the world that gods survive.”

Are there notes about when and why these changes were made? I find the new changes to be less readable.

Thank you.

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Bhante Sujato’s translations are done using a system called Bilara. All of the data for the translations are kept in a GitHub repository called bilara-data. Here is the file that has MN100:

To see the history of changes you need to click the “Blame” button. (As if you were going to “blame” the person who made the change. Strange, I know.)

Then you can search for the new version of the text by pressing ctrl + f:

This can tell you when the change was made. However it doesn’t explain why the change was made. Do you know how to turn on the notes on SuttaCentral.net? When viewing a sutta you can press n to cycle through the two notes view types.

I don’t think Bhante usually explains his change in the notes, but it’s always possible. Sometimes people just make a post here on the forum and ask him. If he has time he usually replies. They are often interesting discussions, so it’s worth posting. That’s why the forum is here, after all.

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Bhante’s note here says:

I think the Buddha felt that since it is agreed “by the eminent” (uccena)—which would include the brahmanical teachers of Saṅgārava—that gods are real, this could be assumed. So the Buddha’s response was aimed at clarifying the kind of existence that gods have, namely, a conditioned and impermanent existence determined by the kamma. When faced with the same question at MN 90:13.2, the Buddha’s immediate response was to ask for a clarification, so the confusion did not arise.

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Yes, thanks for the question and explanations!

I am constantly revising things, and making changes and corrections, small or large.

  • Sometimes they are simply corrections of mistakes.
  • Other times, I change my mind on a matter of interpretation.
  • Sometimes it’s for consistency.
  • Other times for style.

I’m working my way through the canon, now about to start on SN 6. And as I go I find things in all sorts of places that can be tweaked. Only rarely are there major shifts in meaning; I think most of the big things are sorted out.

As one example, yesterday I changed the names in Thag 1.42 from masculine to feminine (it will show up on the site soon!) It’s a curious detail, because the group of three mentioned here are elsewhere known as bhikkhunis, yet the commentary says they were in fact the sons of those bhikkhunis, despite the fact that no such sons appear elsewhere. And then there’s the small problem that the names have a feminine gender. It seems obvious that these are, in fact, those nuns, yet Western translators (Rhys Davids, Norman) have followed the commentary in using the masculine. (Norman argues that it could be a Magadhan masculine vocative in -e).

And I used the masculine form until just now, too! It’s one of the small ways that the presence of the bhikkhunis is erased by the commentaries.

Another change I just made, Māra disparages the bhikkhuni Somā in SN 5.2, saying women can’t attain Dhamma with their “two-fingered wisdom”, which I changed to “two-inch wisdom”. And here’s the note why:

“Two-inch wisdom” (dvaṅgulapaññā) is literally “two finger(-breadth’s) wisdom”. It is explained by the commentary as limited wisdom; or because women hold thread between two fingers. The subcommentary and the commentary to the Therīgāthā say it is because women test whether rice is cooked by pressing a grain between two fingers. Normally, aṅgula with a number is a unit of length equal to the width of the middle finger. For example, the time past noon is measured when the sun’s shadow moves two inches (pli-tv-kd22:1.10.16), which is the same distance the shadow moves each month (Arthaśāstra 2.20.42). Thus the first commentarial explanation is the most plausible: “two-inch wisdom” means “limited wisdom”.

And I did a bit of research on the idiom, in another note:

It is Māra, not the Buddha, who doubts women’s capacity. It is interesting to see who adopts Māra’s view. In Mahāvastu 3.391, a brahmin ascetic urges a female competitor to throw a debating match with him, lest people say that he was beaten by “a mere woman’s two-inch wisdom”. In vv18:8.4, a former serving woman celebrates how she as a woman attained the Dhamma, but the commentary says this was “despite her two-inch thick intelligence”. In the late literary text Bṛhatkathāślokasaṁgraha the idiom is employed by a woman to dismiss women’s wit (22.35)—as so often, a woman makes the best misogynist—or by a man who muses that perhaps men like him are the real fools since they allow women to entice them (22.302–3).

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Thank you, all. This is more than I hoped for. Remarkable system of tracking all the changes and notes.
:folded_hands:

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Bhante,

Thank you for sharing such insight into your process! And thank you for your generous work in suttacentral, and to your team as well. SuttaCentral has been my main resource as someone relatively new to the suttas.

I come from an ardent sect of Christianity, and struggled significantly in its shadows after questioning it. Dharma practice and insight have helped me re-frame my understanding of gods.

Most dharma teachers and practitioners I have spoken with - perhaps following the Buddha’s example - do not seem to dwell on or delve into the concept of god/gods. Perhaps it is not skillful to give much oxygen to the subject. And yet, it is at the very heart of Christian faith concept. I struggle to find ways to bridge dharma concept with Christian concept. I honor all traditions’ emphases on compassion, good will, wisdom, and right living. Forgetting or forsaking these virtues seems to multiply suffering, and I acknowledge that, through the ages, human populations seem to have developed a variety of paths to support and encourage important virtues.

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Two of the sons appear in AN 10.72:

At one time the Buddha was staying near Vesālī, at the Great Wood, in the hall with the peaked roof, together with several well-known senior disciples. They included Venerables Cāla, Upacāla, Kakkaṭa, Kaṭimbha, Kaṭa, Kaṭissaṅga, and other well-known senior disciples.

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The Buddha taught about gods (devā) extensively.

  • He taught gods who came to this realm, visited the different realms of gods and taught them there, and taught people about gods in many, many suttas.
  • One of his epithets is “teacher of gods and humans.”
  • One of the factors of right view is that there are spontaneously born beings, which includes gods. Another factor of right view is that there is another world, which includes realms of the gods.
  • The penultimate stage of enlightenment is the nonreturner who is reborn in the pure abodes, the highest form realms of the gods.
  • One of the six recollections (a meditation subject) is recollection of the gods.

There are many possible reasons for why many modern teachers and practitioners don’t talk much about gods. Here are some.

  • They have faith that gods exist but haven’t developed the psychic powers to know this directly.
  • They have developed the psychic powers to know about gods directly, but they don’t talk about it for certain reasons.
  • They are uncomfortable with what listeners might think about them, might say about them, or might do if they talk about gods.
  • They don’t think that talking about gods is important for Dhamma practice.
  • They are agnostic about the existence of gods.
  • They don’t have faith in the existence of gods.
  • They deny the existence of gods.
  • They haven’t given the concept of gods much thought.
  • They are personally uncomfortable with the concept of gods.
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Indeed. In the CIPS (Comprehensive Index of Pāli Suttas) you could start with gods and then review the cross references such as devas, brahmās, etc. There is quite a lot.

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Two people of the same name, identified by the commentary as the sons. The Thig verse is clearly feminine vocative.