Samvega for everyone

You mean whether rebirth exists or not we need to practice, right? Yes, that is the carrot- samvega is the stick motivation for the path! Some people respond better to the stick while others do better with the carrot (hmm or does everyone need a bit of both- psychology papers?).

with metta

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It could be the biggest hindrance to Nibbana- I also know some people find it a great motivator (samvega) as well:

“What do you think, great king? Suppose a man, trustworthy and reliable, were to come to you from the east and on arrival would say: ‘If it please your majesty, you should know that I come from the east. There I saw a great mountain, as high as the clouds, coming this way, crushing all living beings [in its path]. Do whatever you think should be done.’ Then a second man were to come to you from the west… Then a third man were to come to you from the north… Then a fourth man were to come to you from the south and on arrival would say: ‘If it please your majesty, you should know that I come from the south. There I saw a great mountain, as high as the clouds, coming this way, crushing all living beings. Do whatever you think should be done.’ If, great king, such a great peril should arise, such a terrible destruction of human life — the human state being so hard to obtain — what should be done?”
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"If, lord, such a great peril should arise, such a terrible destruction of human life — the human state being so hard to obtain — what else should be done but Dhamma-conduct, right conduct, skillful deeds [the practice of the N8FP], meritorious deeds?"SN3.25

with metta

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There are positive ways to motivate people and negative ways. The carrot or the stick. Modern psychology has found that the carrot works better and with many more people. While some people respond to threats, punishment, anxiety, or a sense of urgency (Samvega) research and clinical wisdom has shown that it shuts other people down, beats other people down.

Buddhist meditation tends to get presented and taught as one size fits all, but in the Pali Canon there is a lot of mention about the Buddha tailoring his teachings to fit the individual.

One thing I have never liked about Thanisarro Bhikkhu’s teachings ( despite the quality of his writing and it being freely available ) is his emphasis on the negative.

A number of years ago I went to see a talk by a young Burmese nun that people in my sutta study group were really into. Q & A came. I told her I really like the idea of doing The Five Daily Recollections, but when I would take it up after a few weeks it would make me anxious. Her answer, both in content and tone shocked me. She basically said “then that isn’t the right meditation for you”.

I’ve found that people who really push Samvega tend to be people who were mistreated, who don’t like themselves, who don’t like their human nature, and who tend to be smug about prescribing Samvega.

I think motivating people with the stick, negative motivation, is part of the animal default in human brains. I think it takes more emotional development and intelligence to see and apply the superior value in using positive sources of motivation.

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For saṃvega to be an effective drive to practice, it must be accompanied by another emotion called pasada, a “clarity and serene confidence.” Pasada is what keeps saṃvega from turning into nihilistic despair by providing a sense of confidence that there is a way out, namely nibbana.[4]

:anjal:

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DN 29 - Pāsādikasutta

(That translation is kinda wonky, though.)

Kinda looks like the “clarity and serene confidence” of pasada is more of a unifying force for a religion about to lose its Founder; the despair people feel that naturally brings them to the contemplative path is here being paired with a serene and confident assessment of the fledgling Buddhist religion, one seen as perfect only when it is the “foremost place in public fame and support”.

I get a different feel out of the term’s context here. Any other ways it’s used in the EBTs?

Here is a more readable translation by Ven. Thanissaro: DN 29

And here are a few suttas dealing with samvega and pasada that Ven. Dhammanando pointed out in another thread:

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Basically, pasada means “faith in the Triple Gem”.

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Maṭṭha­kuṇḍa­lī­vatthu

Manopubbaṅgamā dhammā,
manoseṭṭhā manomayā;
Manasā ce pasannena,
bhāsati vā karoti vā;
Tato naṃ sukhamanveti,
chāyāva anapāyinī.

Manasa ce Pasannena: clear mental state with calm confidence. Pasannena / Pasada is a mental and emotional attitude that comprises a deep feeling encompassing the same time and intellectual appreciation, a satisfaction, a clarity of thoughts, a serenity and a confidence.

http://www.acessoaoinsight.net/dhp/dhp1.1.php

:anjal:

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Well, it seems to carry that connotation, but check the citations given above, and then search for the Pali term on your own; you’ll see the Triple Gem context - or one like it - much more often.

I think the term reflects the idea that, for the Buddhist, the answer to samvega was a calming faith in Buddhism. It seems obvious.

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I think it’s not just faith.

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(SN 46.57 is about developing the awakening factors with skeleton-perception. This is a unique take on things, I think.)

AN 4.245
AN 4.34
AN 4.52

These all use it as confidence/faith in Triple Gem stuffs.

SN 11.14
AN 5.47

These have the word in the final stanzas in relatively explicit contexts of faith.

AN 5.162 does have it translated as ‘mental clarity & calm’. It’s in an interesting context, where it’s connected with im/pure bodily & verbal behavior. It could almost stand in as a general “pure mental behavior” term. This could have been translated either way, given the overall EBT context of valuing faith for many perceived benefits, i.e. every other EBT text so far.

Iti90 has it bluntly as ‘faith’… I mean, I could go on, but…

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if it were only faith we would have no interest in Buddhism.

:anjal:

There is a description of saṃvega-vatthu in the Visuddhimagga.

Birth, old age, disease, death, the suffering in the lower states of existence, the misery of the past rooted in the cycle of rebirth, the misery of the future rooted in the cycle of rebirth, the misery of the present rooted in the search after food.
— Visuddhimagga, Ch. III

There are also the Divine Messengers (deva-dūta) of birth, old age, disease, consequences of evil actions and death (MN 130).

“Then King Yama presses and questions and cross-questions him about the first divine messenger: ‘Good man, did you not see the first divine messenger to appear in the world?’1207 He says: ‘I did not, venerable sir.’ Then King Yama says: ‘Good man, have you never seen in the world a young tender infant lying prone, fouled in his own excrement and urine?’ He says: ‘I have, venerable sir.’

“Then King Yama says: ‘Good man, did it never occur to you — an intelligent and mature man — “I too am subject to birth, I am not exempt from birth: surely I had better do good by body, speech, and mind”?’

[…]

“Then, after pressing and questioning and cross-questioning him about the first divine messenger, King Yama presses and questions and cross-questions him about the second divine messenger: ‘Good man, did you not see the second divine messenger to appear in the world?’ He says: ‘I did not, venerable sir.’ Then King Yama says: ‘Good man, have you never seen in the world a man — or a woman — at eighty, ninety, or a hundred years, aged, as crooked as a roof bracket, doubled up, supported by a walking stick, tottering, frail, youth gone, teeth broken, grey-haired, scanty-haired, bald, wrinkled, with limbs all blotchy?’ He says: ‘I have, venerable sir.’

“Then King Yama says: ‘Good man, did it never occur to you — an intelligent and mature man — “I too am subject to ageing, I am not exempt from ageing: surely I had better do good by body, speech, and mind”?’

[…]

“Then, after pressing and questioning and cross-questioning him about the second divine messenger, King Yama presses and questions and cross-questions him about the third divine messenger: [181] ‘Good man, did you not see the third divine messenger to appear in the world?’ He says: ‘I did not, venerable sir.’ Then King Yama says: ‘Good man, have you never seen in the world a man — or a woman — afflicted, suffering, and gravely ill, lying fouled in his own excrement and urine, lifted up by some and set down by others?’ He says: ‘I have, venerable sir.’

“Then King Yama says: ‘Good man, did it never occur to you — an intelligent and mature man — “I too am subject to sickness, I am not exempt from sickness: surely I had better do good by body, speech, and mind”?’

[…]

“Then, after pressing and questioning and cross-questioning him about the third divine messenger, King Yama presses and questions and cross-questions him about the fourth divine messenger: ‘Good man, did you not see the fourth divine messenger to appear in the world?’ He says: ‘I did not, venerable sir.’ Then King Yama says: ‘Good man, have you never seen in the world, when a robber culprit is caught, kings having many kinds of tortures inflicted on him: having him flogged with whips… (as Sutta 129, §4)… and having his head cut off with a sword?’ He says: ‘I have, venerable sir.’

“Then King Yama says: ‘Good man, did it never occur to you — an intelligent and mature man — “Those who do evil actions have such tortures of various kinds inflicted on them here and now; [182] so what in the hereafter? Surely I had better do good by body, speech, and mind”?’

[…]

"Then, after pressing and questioning and cross-questioning him about the fourth divine messenger, King Yama presses and questions and cross-questions him about the fifth divine messenger: ‘Good man, did you not see the fifth divine messenger to appear in the world?’ He says: ‘I did not, venerable sir.’ Then King Yama says: ‘Good man, have you never seen in the world a man — or a woman — one-day dead, two-days dead, three-days dead, bloated, livid, and oozing with matter?’ He says: ‘I have, venerable sir.’

“Then King Yama says: ‘Good man, did it never occur to you — an intelligent and mature man — “I too am subject to death, I am not exempt from death: surely I had better do good by body, speech, and mind”?’

[…]

— MN 130, Devadūta Sutta — The Divine Messengers (transl. Bhikkhu Bodhi)

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In regards to pasada and pasanna it is something I have been investigating a fair bit :wink: people often want to know the meaning.

As I understand it it’s not just gladness, delight or faith, it has an aspect of ‘seeing’ (pas) clearly for oneself. Especially in the case of sampasada, which appears more often. Mainly in cases discussing having seen for oneself the noble-truths.

From Ayya Tathaaloka’s essay ‘lasting inspiration’

Pasāda is a close relative of pasanna, in which the qualities of “seeing” and “knowing” that serve as essential aspects of the insight knowledge of vipassanā are a fundamental part of the meaning.
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There is a major shift that occurs with this seeing: a clearing and brightening of the heart and mind which gives rise to mental purity of a kind in which faith and trust grow and becomes established, together with happiness, joy, devotion, pious and virtuous dedication, calmness, and peacefulness. These are linking qualities between tranquility (samatha) and insight (vipassanā), a fertile ground for the deepening of both. All of these qualities spring forth in a way that may be religiously characterized as an experience of grace, reconciliation, and even sanctification, that is, a primary first step in entering into the path of holiness.

:pray:
May all beings have clear and bright minds.

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I don’t see how that follows. For those not born buddhist, one first develops an interest in Buddhism, and then, when they realize that Buddhism is awesome, faith arises.

Edit:

So pasada might, by and large, simply mean faith in the triple gem, per the suttas indicating as much, but that faith generally arises as a result of previously seeing something of value there.

When they see Buddhism works faith arises.

If it just sounds like an awesome idea but doesn’t work you don’t stick around long :slight_smile:
It’s like a fad diet

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Sometimes it goes one step further, and psychosomatic changes become apparent:

Then Sariputta the wanderer went to Moggallana the wanderer. Moggallana the wanderer saw him coming from afar and, on seeing him, said, “Bright are your faculties, my friend; pure your complexion, and clear. Could it be that you have attained the Deathless?”
"Yes, my friend, I have attained the Deathless. " Mv 1.23.1-10

with metta

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Does this word pasada, and the pasada-type of building, have any relation? The vantage offered by a stilt-house might be a good symbol of a certain aloof observation.

It takes various levels of “something of value” for a given person to think that “It works”, so these differ in that way.

For the non-religious samvega-experiencers, “something of value” doesn’t warrant a commitment to the religion in toto, such that “Buddhism works” doesn’t apply (and anyway, which one?). It’s a bit of an argument from authority, but religious people who agree with this approach to Founder/Church (= Sangha) statements call it “faith”.

The EBTs seem to say that mental calm comes from such a faith, but I wonder about the many modern folk for whom faith is not associated with mental calm…

When I say Buddhism works I mean the 8FP works. It leads to less suffering more happiness. This isn’t about secular/Theravada/Mahayana or a meditation technique.

I don’t think so. The prefix pāsā seems to be to with stone/rock. Pāsāna is a stone or rock, pāsāda a mansion or castle.

I’m only new to Pāli though, so this is not authoritative

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