Sankhara in DO and its definition?

Earlier bhante Sujato answered my question , the answer as below :

" intentional acts, i.e. kamma, expressed via body, speech, and mind. Such acts have an ethical component that gives them a creative power. This is the energy that sustains the stream of consciousness from one life to the life. "

Now, the problem is , for an arahant , with the cessation of ignorant , sankhara cease to be , hence ,
for an arahant that already
abandoned his /her ignorant,
will not have " sankhara " !!!
What do you think ?!

[quote=“James, post:1, topic:5771”]
Now, the problem is , for an arahant , with the cessation of ignorant , sankhara cease to be , hence ,
for an arahant that already
abandoned his /her ignorant,
will not have " sankhara " !!![/quote]

Not at all. This is a common misinterpretation.

Each element of Conditioned Arising (paticca-samuppada) relates to the next one as a requisite condition (paccaya).

What is a requisite condition? For example, fuel is a requisite condition for fire. So if you stop fueling the fire, it will cease, but with some delay.

Similarly, with the cessation of ignorance, sankharas will eventually cease to be at the moment of Nibbana without remainder, - but in the current lifetime of the Arahant, they still continue.

What then is the function of the inoperative (kriya) types of consciousness? They occur in a living Arahat. He is free from ignorance, hence he no longer generates sa.nkhaaras.

1 Like

This simile can’t apply to DO,
because the cycle here refer
to the mental state not the body .

Ven. Bhikkhu Bodhi answers this in detail in his article:
A Critical Examination of Ñāṇavīra Thera’s “A Note on Paṭiccasamuppāda”,
pointing out that suttas explain Conditioned Arising as happening in three lifetimes, and involving the physical body.

I understand what you are saying ,
but will you look at the meaning you implying here , " intention "
before any Action taken !

Which in turn conditions consciousness conditions namarupa conditions
six sense organ !
Here it supposed to stop
at namarupa and not giving
rise to " new " six sense organ !
Sankhara if render as
" intention " is incorrect !

FYI , Sankhara in DO ,
The meaning here should refer
to " clinging " !

Thank you .

This interpretation seems to be often based on SN 12.51, which refers to three types of volitional formations, namely:

Bhikkhus, if a person immersed in ignorance generates a meritorious volitional formation, consciousness fares on to the meritorious; if he generates a demeritorious volitional formation, consciousness fares on to the demeritorious; if he generates an imperturbable volitional formation, consciousness fares on to the imperturbable. SN 12.51

Since an arahant is free from ignorance, an arahant does not generate meritorious, demeritorious & imperturbable intentions but still generates enlightened/wise intentions.

But when a bhikkhu has abandoned ignorance and aroused true knowledge, then, with the fading away of ignorance and the arising of true knowledge, he does not generate a meritorious volitional formation, or a demeritorious volitional formation, or an imperturbable volitional formation. Since he does not generate or fashion [these three types of] volitional formations, he does not cling to anything in the world. Not clinging, he is not agitated. Not being agitated, he personally attains Nibbāna. He understands: ‘Destroyed is birth, the holy life has been lived, what had to be done has been done, there is no more for this state of being.’ SN 12.51

:seedling:

3 Likes

What do you think of giving dhamma talks is not a meritorious intention ?

Yes. An arahant does all work with a void mind of sunnata. :buddha:

Please read the sutta posted.

But when a bhikkhu has abandoned ignorance and aroused true knowledge, then, with the fading away of ignorance and the arising of true knowledge, he does not generate a meritorious volitional formation, or a demeritorious volitional formation, or an imperturbable volitional formation. Since he does not generate or fashion [these three types of] volitional formations, he does not cling to anything in the world. Not clinging, he is not agitated. Not being agitated, he personally attains Nibbāna. He understands: ‘Destroyed is birth, the holy life has been lived, what had to be done has been done, there is no more for this state of being.’ SN 12.51

Making merit is not for arahants, as stated in MN 117:

And what, bhikkhus, is right view that is affected by the taints, partaking of merit, ripening in the acquisitions? ‘There is what is given and what is offered and what is sacrificed; there is fruit and result of good and bad actions; there is this world and the other world; there is mother and father; there are beings who are reborn spontaneously; there are in the world good and virtuous recluses and brahmins who have realised for themselves by direct knowledge and declare this world and the other world.’ This is right view affected by taints, partaking of merit, ripening in the acquisitions.

:seedling:

2 Likes

So , the sankhara in DO
refer as intention ?

According to the majority of scholars & Buddhists (but not all).

SN 12.51 actually does not exactly say meritorious, demeritorious & imperturbable intentions are ‘sankhara’ of the 2nd paccaya. Instead, they could possibly refer to three kinds of attachment / clinging (upadana) since the Pali term for these volitional formations in SN 12.51 is saṅkhāraṃ abhisaṅkharoti, the same as SN 22.79, which is about the sankhara aggregate. :seedling:

Kiñca, bhikkhave, saṅkhāre vadetha? Saṅ­kha­ta­mabhi ­saṅ­kha­ron­tīti kho, bhikkhave, tasmā ‘saṅkhārā’ti vuccati. Kiñca saṅ­kha­ta­mabhi­saṅ­kha­ronti? Rūpaṃ rūpattāya saṅ­kha­ta­mabhi­saṅ­kha­ronti, vedanaṃ vedanattāya saṅ­kha­ta­mabhi­saṅ­kha­ronti, saññaṃ saññattāya saṅ­kha­ta­mabhi­saṅ­kha­ronti, saṅkhāre saṅkhārattāya saṅ­kha­ta­mabhi­saṅ­kha­ronti, viññāṇaṃ viññāṇattāya saṅ­kha­ta­mabhi­saṅ­kha­ronti. Saṅ­kha­ta­mabhi­saṅ­kha­ron­tīti kho, bhikkhave, tasmā ‘saṅkhārā’ti vuccati.

And why, bhikkhus, do you call them volitional formations? ‘They construct the conditioned,’ bhikkhus, therefore they are called volitional formations. And what is the conditioned that they construct? They construct conditioned form as form; they construct conditioned feeling as feeling; they construct conditioned perception as perception; they construct conditioned volitional formations as volitional formations; they construct conditioned consciousness as consciousness. ‘They construct the conditioned,’ bhikkhus, therefore they are called volitional formations.

SN 22.79

3 Likes

Any exact words from Suttas
for this statement ?
I mean void mind of sunnata .

So the arahant still experiences dukkha whilst alive?

At one time the Blessed One lived in the squirrels’ sanctuary in the bamboo grove in Rajagaha. Then venerable Sāriputta getting up from his seclusion in the evening approached the Blessed One, worshipped, and sat on a side. The Blessed One said to venerable Sāriputta. `Sāriputta, your mental faculties are bright, skin colour is pure, in which abiding, do you spend your time mostly?” “Venerable sir, I spend my time mostly in voidance". “It’s good Sāriputta, you abide mostly in the abiding of Great Beings. MN 151

But there is this dwelling discovered by the Tathagata where, not attending to any themes, he enters & remains in internal emptiness. If, while he is dwelling there by means of this dwelling, he is visited by monks, nuns, lay men, lay women, kings, royal ministers, sectarians & their disciples, then — with his mind bent on seclusion, tending toward seclusion, inclined toward seclusion, aiming at seclusion, relishing renunciation, having destroyed those qualities that are the basis for mental fermentation — he converses with them only as much as is necessary for them to take their leave. MN 122

:buddha:

1 Like

Yes, as described in Sallatha sutta

"Now, the well-instructed disciple of the noble ones, when touched with a feeling of pain, does not sorrow, grieve, or lament, does not beat his breast or become distraught. So he feels one pain: physical, but not mental. Just as if they were to shoot a man with an arrow and, right afterward, did not shoot him with another one, so that he would feel the pain of only one arrow. In the same way, when touched with a feeling of pain, the well-instructed disciple of the noble ones does not sorrow, grieve, or lament, does not beat his breast or become distraught. He feels one pain: physical, but not mental.

http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/sn/sn36/sn36.006.than.html

1 Like

Painful feelings (dukkha vedana) & the unsatisfactoriness of impermanence (dukkha lakkhana). But the arahant does not experience the upadana dukkha of the 1st noble truth. :seedling:

Here a bhikkhu is an arahant, one whose taints are destroyed, the holy life fulfilled, who has done what had to be done, laid down the burden, attained the goal, destroyed the fetters of being, completely released through final knowledge. However, his five sense faculties remain unimpaired, by which he still experiences what is agreeable and disagreeable and feels pleasure and pain. It is the extinction of attachment, hate and delusion in him that is called the Nibbāna-element… Iti 44

1 Like

but the final part of the sutta you quote says:

“Now what, bhikkhus, is the Nibbāna-element with no residue left? Here a bhikkhu is an arahant … completely released through final knowledge. For him, here in this very life, all that is experienced, not being delighted in, will be extinguished. That, bhikkhus, is called the Nibbāna-element with no residue left. Iti 44

I meant to say the arahant does NOT experience the upadana dukkha of the 1st noble truth

You will have to ask the scholars about this. The verse is generally interpreted to mean “all that is experienced in this very life is extinguished”. In other words, this is the Nibbana that occurs after the termination of life.

For me, the important distinction is there are two types of Nibbana: (i) a Nibbana with feeling (vedana); and (ii) a Nibbana without feeling (vedana). Contrary to what most would naturally construe, in my opinion, the most important Nibbana is the Nibbana with feeling. This is because, before the Buddha, the yogis were fruitlessly & impossibly searching for a Nibbana without feeling and the Buddha discovered the Nibbana with feeling is the Nibbana that can found in this life.

Kind regards :seedling:

Does the Arahant experience “dukkha”?
An Arahant can certainly experience “unpleasantness”: Buddha himself suffered from lack of food (hunger), when the Brahmin of Verany-jara forgot to feed him after inviting him for the rains’ retreat.
Moggallana was severely beaten up, and eventually killed by robbers.
Saariputta became very sick towards the end of his life, when he visted his mother to teach her the Dhamma.
These experiences are surely connected to “painful bodily feeling”. But they are based on resultant consciousness (vipaaka) of past Karma. The active consciousness connected with them is “inoperative” (kiriya), based on utter detachment.
In Myanmar people use the term “wut” (from Paali va.t.ta) for these events, not kamma, to show that no further sa.nkhaara-s (leading to future existences) are produced.

I come back to missing abbreviations.
What is DO?
What is FYI?

[quote=“akincana, post:19, topic:5771, full:true”]I come back to missing abbreviations.
What is DO?
What is FYI?
[/quote]
“Dependent Origination” ?
“For Your Information”

1 Like