Sayalays banned from using almsbowl

[LXNDR]

@Vimala

But I think there is a grave danger when we are asked to “not make a fuss” and when oppression becomes to be regarded as “normal”.

Not to mention any specific country here, but what would happen if we were asked to just follow the president and not make a fuss, when racism and sexism become the norm?

this is a big dilemma

on the other hand human life is too short to fight all the windmills and stupidity

[Leon74]

@Vstakan

If you don’t feel about the situation around the Siladharas the way I do and you have a clear idea why the decision of the bhikkhu community to compose the Five Point Declaration was alright, it’s fine

I don’t know whether that is directed to me or said more in general - to be clear: I said I did not support this practice.

[Vstakan]

I’d say it is also important, how exactly you’re making a fuss about oppression

[Vstakan]

Okay, great Then we don’t really have any differing opinions on the matter

[UpasakaMichael]

Ilya, thanks for the link to Bhante Sujato’s essay. I’d not seen that before, It reminds me again why I trust and value Bhante’s scholarship, advocacy and, well, what Thanissara said in the comments (she being formerly part of the Chithurst and Amaravati community):

" And we thank you for that Ajahn Sujato – and for the clear voice & ethical – compassionate leadership you give to the discussion."

I want to be careful not to sound like a “mansplainer,” as though I have some special insight into what is appropriate for an adult woman in a monastic community. I have no real standing at all to to comment on what any intelligent woman should decide in terms of her monastic or lay life. But, early in my vocational life, I spent time as a Domestic Violence prosecutor. I put men who abused their wives and girlfriends in jail, but also learned how some women became almost immune to the abuse, or through fear, were unwilling to testify so as to avoid losing their “relationship” of servitude with their abuser. The abuse became a “new normal” of sorts. A “Stockholm Syndrome,” in some cases. Psychologically, being treated in a substandard way was tolerated in order to maintain a status quo, even though the status quo was unhealthy.

Today, I do some NGO work in Thailand, and see, through NGO interaction, cases of girls and women being trafficked. I have been to the Hill Tribes, and talked with these bright, lovely girls who cannot afford to go to school, working in the orange groves for a pittance, possibly being sold by their parents to a recruiter for a go-go bar in BKK or Chiang Mai. In Chiang Rai last week, I ate breakfast at a table next to a dodgy looking man of 65 years, sitting with a girl of maybe 18 or 20. The look on her face was, yes, heartbreaking. In general, I see how so many girls and young women end up in situations of abuse, and yet fall into a kind of pathology of victimized resignation or acceptance, as the patriarchal, impoverished, and money-driven society is just so stacked against them.

So, I feel a bring a bias to this discussion, and apologize if I reached too far. But I do endorse what Ilya included with his link, that these forms of control and abuse, while on the surface perhaps reasonable or acceptable, tend to have a more pernicious effect. That’s my view and it is founded, in part, that the Buddha that I see and feel in the Suttas demanded better in terms of the views and treatment of women in his Sangha.

[LXNDR]

@Vstakan

I remember how shocked I was when I read for the first time about a Bhikkhu fanning the Buddha.

...

that bhikkhu acquired a great deal of merit by doing so and especially if it wasn’t under coercion or out of sense of obligation

Ramana Maharshi used to be served by devotees all the time and they all were happy to get close to him in whatever way possible whereas he himself was totally disinterested and unassuming like an awakened person is

that is certainly an Indian spiritual thing

[sujato]

@Leon74

You mean, monks who were openly gay before ordaining? I mean, after all, the importance of sexual orientation falls away after ordination, doesn’t it?

Ordaining means you change your behavior; it does not erase your identity or your desires. Being gay in an all-male or all-female community poses its own special set of challenges.

[Leon74]

@sujato

Ordaining means you change your behavior; it does not erase your identity or your desires. Being gay in an all-male or all-female community poses its own special set of challenges.

Dear Bhante,

I can understand that. A gay monk might -unwillingly- fall in love with one of his fellow-monks for example.
But being openly gay as a monk? How can that be?
How would that show?
I would not expect a monk to clearly show his sexual orientation, whether he is gay or straight.
But I’m totally not acquainted with this topic - I might be very mistaken.

[sujato]

@Leon74

But being openly gay as a monk? How can that be?

It just means that they tell their fellow monastics, so it is not something that’s hidden or shameful. They might choose to share it with lay people as well, as part of their story. Personally, I think it’s great if they do.

[Leon74]

Thanks! That’s clear

[sabbamitta]

Hi Anagarika Michael,

thanks for sharing the link to the article about Mae Chee Kaew. This reminds me this book about her life I have read some years ago:

http://www.forestdhamma.org/books/english/

(You have to choose “Mae Chee Kaew” in the bar at the left.) You can download the book in different formats. I hope some of the people here enjoy

[jesshaines]

Sorry, I can’t find Bhante Sujato’s essay posted in this thread. As one who also trusts his scholarship and compassion, would like to read it Can you just tell me which post it’s in? thanks