Thank a lot, Venerable, for the explanations.
It’s some good news about Mrs Rhys.
Bhante, are these two scholars, Davids and Poussin, talking about different Abhidharmas to boot, adding to the confusion?
In this case it doesn’t much matter since they are talking about an idea that appears to have been shared by all Abhidharma systems. Usually one would expect Poussin to focus on Sarvāstivāda, Sautrāntika and Yogācāra sources, but the article discussed by RD is based almost wholly on Pali ones.
Louis de La Vallée-Poussin: Dogmatique bouddhique – la négation de l’âme et la doctrine de l’acte
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Interesting, thanks.
Regarding “talking about different Abhidharmas”: . . .
This may be related to that the possibility of her being foreshadowed (1903) in understanding of pali words by her husband’s [married 1894] Pali-English Dictionary of the Pali Text Society appeared 20 years or so later. Or, may be not.
There could be those who defend such use of Sanskrit roots to explain the pali words in a pali dictionary, and also there could be those who criticize this.
And, here is the one who supported this approach, imo.
From: (DOC) Why Did the Pali-English Dictionary of the Pali Text Society Use Sanskrit Roots to Derive the Meaning of Pali words | D.C. Wijeratna - Academia.edu
Why Did the Pali-English Dictionary of the Pali Text Society Use Sanskrit Roots to Derive the Meaning of Pali words
The foreword by Thomas Rhys Davids himself says (about the ‘strange method’):
We have given throughout the Sanskrit roots corresponding to the Pali roots, and have omitted the latter. It may be objected that this is a strange method to use in a Pali dictionary, especially as the vernacular on which Pali is based had never passed through the stage of Sanskrit. That may be so; and it may not be possible historically, that any Pali word in the canon could have been actually derived from the corresponding Sanskrit word. Nevertheless the Sanskrit form though arisen quite independently, may throw light upon the Pali form; and as Pali roots have not yet been adequately studied in Europe, the plan adopted will probably, at least for the present, be more useful.
…
…
This work is essentially preliminary.
Anyway, the author of dictionary commented himself about “the strange method” as “that may be so”, and I would add “that may also be alien, as well” to the pali universe.
And, it may not be very wrong to say that she might’ve used the Sanskrit-only derived ideas in translating Pali Abhidhammas, speaking of
talking about different Abhidharmas to boot.
Once again, I am coming late to this discussion and have been absent from contributions for some time. Life does get in the way of these interests at times.
I enjoy discussion around the Tipitaka, especially reading the varied opinions and approaches to the Abhidhamma.
I am glad to return to these discussions and to contribute where I think my thoughts might add something of worth to the discussion.
The suttacentral forum is also a great aid to connection between Buddhists.
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Hey Trevor, good to see you again. I hope you’re holding up in these hard times. 
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Inspired by this topic we have invited Bhante Jinalankara (NZ) who is a popular Abhidhamma teacher to deliver 4 modules in English to the wider community.
" Introduction to Abhidhamma" by Bhante Jinalankara will be launched side by side with “Visudhimagga for Sutta Lovers” by Bhante Sujato during the month of Vesak.
Each course consist of 4 pre recorded lessons followed by a live class of 1 hour for QA.
Registration required to get the course material and to join the live class.
Will share the link soon.
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Hi Bhante. Yes, thank you. Managing okay. I hope you are well. It’s good to be back with SC. I had changed my email address a year or more ago and neglected to make sure everyone had the new address.
with metta
Trevor
I’m so excited for this one!
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Two interactive courses to celebrate Vesak
Presented by SuttaCentral and Dhammanet
The Visuddhimagga for Sutta Lovers
A simple introduction to the cornerstone of the classical Theravada commentaries.
Conducted by Bhante Sujato
An Introduction to Abhidhamma
A four part introductory course on Abhidhamma, the detailed and technical treatment of the Buddha’s teachings.
Conducted by Bhante Jinalankara
Lessons will be released on the 7th of May (Vesak day) followed by live discussions on the weekend.
Course material and updates will be sent after you register
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Week 1 course materiel for both classes are available online for the registered participants now. We will continue to release the course material a few days ahead of the live class.
The first live QA class is on Saturday at 8 am (EST). If you like to join please register here:
Today we are celebrating the birth, the life and the passing of the Gautama Buddha. We wish you all good health, inner peace and contentment on this VESAK day, B.E 2563.
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Both classes are excellent, I just finished viewing the course material for week 2, looking forward to both live classes on the weekend.
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Thank you very much for sharing.
But I’m a bit intrigued here, how on earth can they translate it from the Chinese to the Sanskrit, and then from the translated-Sanskrit into English? Why didn’t they just translate it from the original Chinese into English instead? How straightforward would that be then.
I believe there must be some mistakes here, I guess that they did procure an original sanskrit version of the text, but not complete, so they had to use the Chinese translation to reconstruct the whole original text. This seems to me more acceptable.
But anyway, I have with me a Vietnamese translation of the Chinese original, I’ll take a look at them both (English and Vietnamese translation). If I find anything interesting, I’ll share here.
BTW, is this English translation in the public domain? I’ve downloaded its PDF file and could I share it with the folks here?
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I don’t really know the process, but I can imagine that the exercise of translating back from Chinese to the original language would involve a kind of discipline and perspective quite different from a Chinese-English translation. In fact, many translators of ancient Chinese Buddhist texts do a sort of Chinese-Sanskrit (or Pali) in their heads when working, as they try to understand what the original text was. Once that has been established with reasonable confidence, an English translation will be much easier. So while it seems odd, I can imagine that it is actually a worthwhile process. Not to mention, having the Sanskrit opens the text up to a lot more people, and to modern translations into Hindi, etc.
It seems to work fine on the Scribd link already posted.
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Could be that some of the Chinese translations imports sounds rather than meaning. A lot of chantings in Chinese makes no sense meaning wise, it just retains (and distort) the sound.
Example: paramita is translated using sound alike into Chinese. So it might be actually easier and have more confidence in accuracy to translate into Sanskrit first.
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One thing I’ve learned recently when reading Chinese Buddhists texts is that if you see a string of weird characters between 3 to 5 characters long, it’s probably a transliteration. For example, I started looking through Ven. Yinshun’s books on the Samyukta Agamas, and saw these: 摩呾理迦, 求那跋陀罗. After scratching my head for a minute, I realized they were transliterations.
No, Venerable, not with this treatise, this treatise is quite an excellent translation. (I mean the Chinese version)
And about what you said, it’s not a translation but a transliteration, usually just some Buddhist terms got transliterated, but if it’s the whole sentence or passage, it’s called a mantra, like the paragate mantra in the Heart sutra.
, this is just amazing Bhante, they must have a mind of Ananda or something, no small feat in the art of translation.
By the way, for your information, Satyasiddhi-śāstra is the foundation on which the Satyasiddhi school 成實宗 was established, it was one of three schools of “Hinayana” Buddhism established in China. (Sorry for Hinayana, I couldn’t find a more apt word), along side with the Vinaya School 律宗, the Abhidharma-Kosa School 俱舍宗. There’s a painting that probably had depicted one of the monks belonging to these Hinayana Schools here: (Painting completed in 1363)
The monk on the far left, and compare him to those on the right
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I think this is a valid usage of the word. Anyway, I think another option is sravakayana.
Perhaps, it’s more that Theravada folks should do a more active introduction to Mahayana folks, so that the Mahayana folks don’t simply use that term to referring to Theravada. Cause, it’s understandable for many Mahayana folks, learning about Theravada for the first time, their perception finds the closest fit and then Hinayana comes out from the historical studies.
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The book, Abhidhammattha Sangaha, is not part of Pali Abhidhamma Pitaka. Bhikkhu Bodhi presents an English translation of it entitled A comprehensive Manual of Abhidhamma (published in 2000). In the translation page 25, it indicates the core teaching of the Abhidhamma: The standpoint of paramatta ‘ultimate reality’, in contrast to paññatti ‘concept/conceptual thought’.
Ultimate reality ‘paramattha’ is of consciousness (citta), mental factors (cetasika), matter (rūpa), and Nibbāna. These are ultimate entities, or existence by reason of their own sabhāva ‘intrinsic nature’. These are dhammas. Dhammas are real.
In contrast, paññatti ‘concept’ is not dhamma, not real. This is because all concepts, such as living beings, men/women, person, are not arisen by causal conditions ‘dhammas’. They are products of mental construction ‘parikappanā’, modes of expression ‘vohāra’, not realities existing by reason of their own nature.
However, these Abhidhamma teachings are clearly not found in the core teaching of suttas, particularly the SN/SA suttas.
E.g. the five aggregates, and also concepts are all conditioned dhammas ‘phenomena’. These are anicca, dukkha, anatta; and also should be seen as void (without reality, rittaka), insubstantial (tucchaka), lacking essence (asāraka), and empty (suññaka) (See SN 22.95, SN 35.197). Nibbāna is the cessation of dukkha/dhamma.
Regarding concept ‘paññatti’ as a conditioned dhamma, one can see its verbal form paññāpeti ‘to reveal’ indicated in SN 14.13. Cf.:
Page 138 from The Fundamental Teachings of Early Buddhism Choong Mun-keat 2000.pdf (72.2 KB)
In the view of that, e.g. the concept of self 'atta", is a conditioned phenomenon. Self, being not real, arises by causal conditions; having arisen it ceases completely by causal conditions. It is a result of previous action, but there is no doer (i.e. empty of self). Cf. also the middle way teaching in SN 12.15 = SA 301, SN 22.90 = SA 262.
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