Second jhāna, noble silence, more incontrovertible evidence V&V is thinking & evaluation

Discussion
1

Table of Contents

2nd Jhāna

STED 2nd Jhāna

Vitakka-vicārānaṃ vūpasamā
 Thought-(and)-evaluation stilling,
ajjhattaṃ sampasādanaṃ
 internal assurance,
cetaso ekodi-bhāvaṃ
 awareness unification,
a-vitakkaṃ a-vicāraṃ
 No-Thought, no-evaluation,
samādhi-jaṃ pīti-sukhaṃ
 Samādhi-based rapture-pleasure,
dutiyaṃ jhānaṃ upasampajja viharati.
 second Jhāna (he) enters, dwells.

SN 41.8 Jains don’t believe samādhi without V&V possible
Nigaṇṭha Nātaputta then said to him:
“Householder, do you have faith in the ascetic Gotama when he says:
‘There is a concentration without thought and examination,
there is a cessation of thought and examination’?
[Citta responds]:
“In this matter, venerable sir,
I do not go by faith in the Blessed One when he says:
‘There is a concentration without thought and examination,
there is a cessation of thought and examination. ’”
...
“Well, venerable sir, to whatever extent I wish,
secluded from sensual pleasures, secluded from unwholesome states,
I enter and dwell in the first jhāna,
which is accompanied by thought and examination,
with rapture and happiness born of seclusion.
Then, to whatever extent I wish, with the subsiding of thought and examination, I enter and dwell in the second jhāna….
Then, to whatever extent I wish, with the fading away as well of rapture…I enter and dwell in the third jhāna….
Then, to whatever extent I wish, with the abandoning of pleasure and pain…I enter and dwell in the fourth jhāna.
“Since I know and see thus, venerable sir,
in what other ascetic or brahmin need I place faith regarding the claim that there is a concentration without thought and examination,
a cessation of thought and examination?”

Noble Silence, ariyo vā tuṇhī-bhāvo
silence as implicit consent appears very frequently like this:
adhivāsesi bhagavā tuṇhībhāvena
 Venerable Sāriputta consented by silence.

STED ariyo vā tuṇhī-bhāvo

SN 21.1 (V&V could not be visual nimitta here, clearly thinking and evaluation)

♦ āyasmā mahāmoggallāno etadavoca —
 Ven. Mahā Moggallāna said,
“idha mayhaṃ, āvuso, rahogatassa paṭisallīnassa
 "Friends, once as I was withdrawn in seclusion,
evaṃ cetaso parivitakko udapādi —
 this train of thought arose to my awareness,
‘ariyo tuṇhībhāvo, ariyo tuṇhībhāvoti vuccati.
 '"Noble silence, noble silence," it is said.
katamo nu kho ariyo tuṇhībhāvo’ti?
 But what is noble silence?'
tassa mayhaṃ āvuso, etadahosi —
 Then the thought occurred to me,

(STED second jhāna = noble silence)

‘idha bhikkhu vitakkavicārānaṃ vūpasamā
 'There is the case where a monk, with the stilling of directed thoughts & evaluations,
ajjhattaṃ sampasādanaṃ
 [1] enters & remains in the second jhāna:
cetaso ekodibhāvaṃ
 rapture & pleasure born of concentration,
avitakkaṃ avicāraṃ
 unification of awareness
samādhijaṃ pītisukhaṃ
 free from directed thought & evaluation —
dutiyaṃ jhānaṃ upasampajja viharati.
 internal assurance.
ayaṃ vuccati ariyo tuṇhībhāvo’ti.
 This is called noble silence.'

incontrovertible proof V&V = thinking and evaluation
In VRJ (vism. redefinition of jhana) first jhāna,
you can't feel the pain of mosquito bites,
you can't hear mosquitoes buzzing,
you can't open your mouth to say, "I wish that mosquito could go away."
You can't think, "I wish that mosquito would go away."
So why didn't the Buddha call first jhāna noble silence then? Why is the entry bar at 2nd jhāna?
This is more incontrovertible proof that V&V (vitakka & vicara) must mean thinking and evaluation/pondering/consideration, not "initial mind thought of a bright visual nimitta and sustained mind glued to the nimitta"
In first EBT jhāna, it's possible for the thought to arise, "I wish that mosquito could go away." (that thought not connected with dhamma and your samadhi nimitta of 4sp would knock you out of first jhana).
It's also possible to have the thought, "may that mosquito be well and happy." This thought being right intention, right view, connected with dhamma, is perfectly legal and expected to happen in first jhāna V&V.
But you can't open your mouth and say, "go away mosquito." (SN 36.11), since the energetic shift to flap your vocal cords would disturb the consolidated internal energy pervasion that characterizes the piti sukha of first jhāna.
This is why it's not noble silence until second jhāna.
And this is why V&V are vaci-sankhara speech fabrications (MN 44). The thoughts of what you're thinking about saying before you actually say it.
V&V of VRJ is just perceptions and attention to luminosity, nothing to do with noble silence of not speaking and not thinking thoughts that you might speak.
This is also further evidence for walking while in jhāna. If monks are told that they should either only be talking about dhamma or in noble silence, in most of those scenarios, they're not sitting with their eyes closed. They're standing or walking around with eyes open.

Either talk on dhamma, or noble silence

MN 26

“bhagavantameva kho no, bhante, ārabbha dhammī kathā vippakatā, atha bhagavā anuppatto”ti.
 “Venerable sir, our discussion on the Dhamma that was interrupted was about the Blessed One himself. Then the Blessed One arrived.”
“sādhu, bhikkhave! etaṃ kho, bhikkhave, tumhākaṃ patirūpaṃ kulaputtānaṃ saddhā agārasmā anagāriyaṃ pabbajitānaṃ yaṃ tumhe dhammiyā kathāya sannisīdeyyātha. sannipatitānaṃ vo, bhikkhave, dvayaṃ karaṇīyaṃ — dhammī vā kathā, ariyo vā tuṇhībhāvo”.
 “Good, bhikkhus. It is fitting for you clansmen who have gone forth out of faith from the home life into homelessness to sit together to discuss the Dhamma. When you gather together, bhikkhus, you should do either of two things: hold discussion on the Dhamma or maintain noble silence.298

AN 8.2 context seems to jhana type activity

AN 8, 1. paṭhamapaṇṇāsakaṃ, 1. mettāvaggo, 2. paññāsuttaṃ (AN 8.2), para. 7 ⇒
 (6) “He has aroused energy for abandoning unwholesome qualities and acquiring wholesome qualities; he is strong, firm in exertion, not casting off the duty of cultivating wholesome qualities. This is the sixth cause and condition that leads to obtaining the wisdom fundamental to the spiritual life….
“saṅghagato kho pana anānākathiko hoti atiracchānakathiko. sāmaṃ vā dhammaṃ bhāsati paraṃ vā ajjhesati ariyaṃ vā tuṇhībhāvaṃ nātimaññati. ayaṃ, bhikkhave, sattamo hetu sattamo paccayo ādibrahmacariyikāya paññāya appaṭiladdhāya paṭilābhāya, paṭiladdhāya bhiyyobhāvāya vepullāya bhāvanāya pāripūriyā saṃvattati.
 18(7) “In the midst of the Saṅgha, he does not engage in rambling and pointless talk. Either he himself speaks on the Dhamma, or he requests someone else to do so, or he adopts noble silence.1622"" This is the seventh cause and condition that leads to obtaining the wisdom fundamental to the spiritual life….
19(8) “He dwells contemplating arising and vanishing in the five aggregates subject to clinging: ‘Such is form, such its origin, such its passing away; such is feeling … such is perception … such are volitional activities … such is consciousness, such its origin, such its passing away.’ This is the eighth cause and condition that leads to obtaining the wisdom fundamental to the spiritual life when it has not been obtained and to its increase, maturation, and fulfillment by development after it has been obtained.

AN 9.4 noble silence closely associated with samatha

AN 9, 1. paṭhamapaṇṇāsakaṃ, 1. sambodhivaggo, 4. nandakasuttaṃ (AN 9.4), para. 4 ⇒
atha kho bhagavā āyasmantaṃ nandakaṃ sārajjamānarūpaṃ viditvā āyasmantaṃ nandakaṃ etadavoca — “sādhu, sādhu, nandaka! etaṃ kho, nandaka, tumhākaṃ patirūpaṃ kulaputtānaṃ saddhāya agārasmā anagāriyaṃ pabbajitānaṃ, yaṃ tumhe dhammiyā kathāya sannisīdeyyātha. sannipatitānaṃ vo, nandaka, dvayaṃ karaṇīyaṃ — dhammī vā kathā ariyo vā tuṇhībhāvo.
 Then the Blessed One, having understood the Venerable Nandaka’s embarrassment, said to him: “Good, good, Nandaka! It is proper for clansmen like you who have gone forth out of faith from the household life into homelessness to sit together for the sake of a Dhamma talk. When you assemble, Nandaka, you should do one of two things: either talk on the Dhamma or maintain noble silence.
saddho ca, nandaka, bhikkhu hoti, no ca sīlavā. evaṃ so tenaṅgena aparipūro hoti. tena taṃ aṅgaṃ paripūretabbaṃ — ‘kintāhaṃ saddho ca assaṃ sīlavā cā’ti. yato ca kho, nandaka, bhikkhu saddho ca hoti sīlavā ca, evaṃ so tenaṅgena paripūro hoti.
 45(1) “Nandaka, a bhikkhu may be endowed with faith but he is not virtuous; thus he is incomplete with respect to that factor.1836"" He should fulfill that factor, [thinking]: ‘How can I be endowed with faith [360] and also be virtuous?’ But when a bhikkhu is endowed with faith and is also virtuous, then he is complete with respect to that factor.
46(2) “A bhikkhu may be endowed with faith and virtuous but he does not gain internal serenity of mind;1837"" thus he is incomplete with respect to that factor. He should fulfill that factor, [thinking]: ‘How can I be endowed with faith and virtuous, and also gain internal serenity of mind?’ But when a bhikkhu is endowed with faith and is virtuous, and also gains internal serenity of mind, then he is complete with respect to that factor.

KN Ud 2.2

KN Ud, 2. mucalindavaggo, 2. rājasuttaṃ (KN 3.12), para. 4 ⇒
 Just now, lord, after the meal, on returning from our alms round, we were sitting gathered here at the assembly hall when this discussion arose: 'Friends, which of these two kings has greater wealth, greater possessions, the greater treasury, the larger realm, the greater stock of riding animals, the greater army, greater power, greater might: King Seniya Bimbisāra of Magadha or King Pasenadi of Kosala?' This was the discussion that had come to no conclusion when the Blessed One arrived.
“na khvetaṃ, bhikkhave, tumhākaṃ patirūpaṃ kulaputtānaṃ saddhā agārasmā anagāriyaṃ pabbajitānaṃ yaṃ tumhe evarūpiṃ kathaṃ katheyyātha. sannipatitānaṃ vo, bhikkhave, dvayaṃ karaṇīyaṃ — dhammī vā kathā ariyo vā tuṇhībhāvo””ti.
 "It isn't proper, monks, that sons of good families, on having gone forth out of faith from home to the homeless life, should talk on such a topic. When you have gathered you have two duties: either Dhamma-talk or noble silence."[1]

KN Ud 3.8 same as Ud 2.2
KN Ud, 3. nandavaggo, 8. piṇḍapātikasuttaṃ (KN 3.28), para. 6 ⇒
“na khvetaṃ, bhikkhave, tumhākaṃ patirūpaṃ kulaputtānaṃ saddhā agārasmā anagāriyaṃ pabbajitānaṃ yaṃ tumhe evarūpiṃ kathaṃ katheyyātha. sannipatitānaṃ vo, bhikkhave, dvayaṃ karaṇīyaṃ — dhammī vā kathā ariyo vā tuṇhībhāvo””ti.

KN Ud 3.9 same as Ud 2.2
KN Ud, 3. nandavaggo, 9. sippasuttaṃ (KN 3.29), para. 6 ⇒
“na khvetaṃ, bhikkhave, tumhākaṃ patirūpaṃ kulaputtānaṃ saddhā agārasmā anagāriyaṃ pabbajitānaṃ yaṃ tumhe evarūpiṃ kathaṃ katheyyātha. sannipatitānaṃ vo, bhikkhave, dvayaṃ karaṇīyaṃ — dhammī vā kathā ariyo vā tuṇhībhāvo””ti.
5 Likes
2

False dichotomy - straw-man argument. The rest is all noise.

3

The way I understand the meaning of V&V depends on the meditation object.

4

Unfortunately the Vism. is riddled with incoherence and contradictions, so a dismissive claim like that sounds credible coming from someone who is usually knowledgeable on Vism, forcing me to respond. The least you can do is point out exactly where you think the false dichotomy is, how it’s a straw man argument, and citations from the EBT and vism. to support a reasonable alternative explanation of why first jhāna is not noble silence.

So first of all, there is no upacara samadhi (access concentration) in the EBT. In the Vism., if you see V&V (vitakka and vicara) behaving like speech fabrications (vaci sankhara), it’s happening in access concentration PRIOR to first jhāna (VRJ- vism. redefinition of jhāna). An EBT V&V thought such as “may that mosquito biting me be happy”, in the Vism., would occur under the access concentration portion of the text. Here is what Vism. says about jhāna absorption using Metta.

  1. When he discriminates between The four, that is himself, the dear,
    The neutral, and the hostile one,
    Then “skilled” is not the name he gets,
    Nor “having amity at will,”
    But only “kindly towards beings.”
    Now, when a bhikkhu’s barriers
    Have all the four been broken down,
    He treats with equal amity
    The whole world with its deities;
    Far more distinguished than the first
    Is he who knows no barriers.
  2. Thus the sign and access are obtained by this bhikkhu simultaneously with the breaking down of the barriers. But when breaking down of the barriers has been effected, he reaches absorption in the way described under the earth kasiṇa without trouble by cultivating, developing, and repeatedly practicing that same sign.
    At this point he has attained the first jhāna, which abandons five factors, possesses five factors, is good in three ways, is endowed with ten characteristics, and is accompanied by loving-kindness. And when that has been obtained, then by cultivating, developing, and repeatedly practicing that same sign, he successively reaches the second and third jhānas in the fourfold system, and the second, third and fourth in the fivefold system. [308]

In short, when it goes from access concentration, during which time V&V of the EBT type can happen, transitions into jhāna absorption, it refers you to the earth kasina section, as it does for the 10 kasinas, 16 APS (anapanasati) and pretty much all of the 40 meditation subject that can attain first jhana, AFAIK. In the earth kasina first jhana absorption, V&V is redefined as applied and sustained thought that grabs onto a visual nimitta or kasina (vitakka), and stays glued to it (vicara), no longer having the ability to do V&V in the EBT way of “thinking and evaluation”.

In the exact words of Vism:

This, in the first place, is the explanation of the meaning of the words “quite
secluded from sense desires, secluded from unprofitable things.”
88.So far the factors abandoned by the jhāna have been shown. And now, in order to show the factors associated with it, which is accompanied by applied and sustained thought is said. [142] Herein, applied thinking (vitakkana) is applied thought (vitakka); hitting upon, is what is meant.25 It has the characteristic of directing the mind on to an object (mounting the mind on its object). Its function is to strike at and thresh—for the meditator is said, in virtue of it, to have the object struck at by applied thought, threshed by applied thought. It is manifested as the leading of the mind onto an object. Sustained thinking (vicaraṇa) is sustained thought (vicāra); continued sustainment (anusañcaraṇa), is what is meant. It has the characteristic of continued pressure on (occupation with) the object. Its function is to keep conascent [mental] states [occupied] with that. It is manifested as keeping consciousness anchored [on that object].

Of the 40 meditation subjects that can only take you to access concentration, and not into first jhāna, such as:
(quoting from wikipedia)

First three recollections are of the virtues of the Three Jewels:

    (1) Buddha
    (2) Dharma
    (3) Sangha

Next three are recollections of the virtues of:

    (4) morality (Śīla)
    (5) liberality (cāga)
    (6) the wholesome attributes of Devas

Recollections of:
    (8) death (see Upajjhatthana Sutta)

    (10) peace (see Nibbana).

Again you can see having V&V of the EBT type (thinking and evaluation/pondering/considering) only takes you to access concentration, can not take you into VRJ jhana, whereas in the EBT, those recollections using V&V of thinking and evaluation are part of sati and dhammavicaya bojjhanga, lead to samadhi bojjhanga and first jhana in a natural and straightforward way (SN 46.3, AN 5.26, MN 20, AN 8.63 to name a few prominent examples).

And this is why the foolish cow is doomed (AN 9.35) if they follow the Vism. redefintion of V&V and jhāna, rather than the EBT understanding of V&V in first jhāna as directed thought and evaluation. If you study things carefully, you can see in earlier Theravada, KN Peta, Vimuttimagga, even the canonical Abhidhamma vibhangga(!!) retains the original EBT V&V meaning of thinking as a speech fabrication.

3 Likes
5

I highly recommend Leigh Brasington’s book Right Concentration. He says Vitaka Vicara is really stating thinking in two different ways, meaning that there is simply thinking in the 1st Jhana.

He explains this in the same way that the similie for the first Jhana states several descriptive terms that mean the same thing, eg: he steeps, suffuses, saturates…

He states that this is merely for emphasis.

1 Like
6

I’m a fan of Leigh’s body of work, and his approach to practice and how he carefully investigates the teachings told to him, by looking in the EBT to validate or arrive at a different understanding.

I have read his book on right concentration, much of it I agree with, some things I don’t. V&V (vitakka and vicara) as (thinking & more thinking) is an interesting interpretation, but it doesn’t hold up well in a lot of cases. For example, See AN 8.63, and the few other suttas that talk about 3 way samadhi (1. with V&V, 2. with vitakka and a modicum of vicara, 3. no V&V). Also see the suttas that only talk about no V&V, or undirected compared to directed samadhi.

If V&V was just thinking and more thinking, in those suttas it’s a wordy and needlessly complicated way to say thinking gets attenuated in 3 stages, or 2 stages.

I think Thanisssaro’s translation (bodhi’s is similar) works in every situation in the EBT I’ve looked through, and is completely coherent. KN Pe (which I show full detailed quote below) is canonical or early paracanonical Theravada commentary, and gives a great clear explanation. It’s very interesting because at first, it looks like it fits both EBT and Vism. understanding of V&V, but then the last part about evaluating the ethical quality clearly can not apply to Vism. first jhana mind glued to a kasina.

KN Pe: Peṭakopadesa 7.72, 1st jhāna commentary
KN-Pe is the earliest detailed word commentary on the standard jhāna formula: Peṭakopadesa 7.72
(first paragraph 72. talks about tīṇi akusala-mūlāni (3 unskillful roots) and 5niv (hindrances) removal.
♦ tattha a-lobhassa pāripūriyā nekkhamma-vitakkaṃ vitakketi.
 Here, for non-greed fulfillment, renunciation-thoughts (he) thinks.
tattha a-dosassa pāripūriyā abyāpāda-vitakkaṃ vitakketi.
 for non-hatred fulfillment, renunciation-thoughts (he) thinks.
tattha a-mohassa pāripūriyā avihiṃsā-vitakkaṃ vitakketi.
 for non-delusion fulfillment, renunciation-thoughts (he) thinks.
tattha a-lobhassa pāripūriyā vivitto hoti kāmehi.
 “Here, for fulfilling non-passion he is secluded from sensual pleasures.
tattha a-dosassa pāripūriyā
 Here, for fulfilling non-aggression and
a-mohassa pāripūriyā ca vivitto hoti pāpakehi akusalehi dhammehi,
 fulfilling non-delusion he is secluded from unskillful phenomena.
savitakkaṃ savicāraṃ vivekajaṃ pītisukhaṃ
 And so he enters and remains in the first jhāna,
paṭhamaṃ jhānaṃ upasampajja viharati.
 which includes directed thought and evaluation, as well as joy and pleasure born of seclusion.
♦ vitakkāti tayo vitakkā —
 Directed thought: There are three kinds of directed thought, namely
nekkhammavitakko
 the thought of renunciation,
abyāpādavitakko
 the thought of non-aversion,
avihiṃsāvitakko.
 and the thought of harmlessness.
tattha paṭham-ābhinipāto vitakko,
 Here, directed thought is the first instance
paṭiladdhassa vicaraṇaṃ vicāro.
 while evaluation is the evaluation of what is thereby received.
yathā puriso dūrato purisaṃ passati āgacchantaṃ,
 Just as when a man sees someone approaching in the distance
na ca tāva jānāti eso itthīti vā purisoti vā
 he does not yet know whether it is a woman or a man,
yadā tu paṭilabhati itthīti vā purisoti vā
 but when he has received [the apperception] that “it is a woman” or “it is a man” or
evaṃ vaṇṇoti vā evaṃ saṇṭhānoti vā
 that “it is of such color” or that “it is one of such shape,”
ime vitakkayanto uttari upaparikkhanti
 then when he has thought this he further scrutinizes,
kiṃ nu kho ayaṃ sīlavā udāhu dussīlo
 “How then, is he ethical or unethical,
aḍḍho vā duggatoti vā.
 rich or poor?”
evaṃ vicāro
 This is examination.
vitakke appeti,
 With directed thought he fixes.
vicāro cariyati ca anuvattati ca.
 With examination he moves about and turns over [what has been thought].”
Notes of interest:
V&V “fixes” and “turning over” have been reinterpreted in the Vsm.
3 Likes