Perhaps this should be stickied with each post, but the suttas are a not a homogenous collection and, as a result, one is bound to encounter contradictions. There are suttas where the Buddha is portrayed as claiming he is best in the world and there are suttas where Gotama claims the arahant, the sage, does not engage in that sort of behavior and has abandoned all forms of conceit. Consult the atthakavagga for the emphasis on how the awakened sage does not claim to be better than anyone or equal or lesser than anyone in the world. They don’t engage in those sorts of processes that create rather than quench a self.
- Perhaps there is a lack of familiarity with kings or billionaires, but many of them are indeed miserable. They chase sensual highs and pleasures and then crash. Depression is at an all time high in the western, industrialized, wealthy world. Their bandage does indeed lack adhesive, as if it didn’t, they would all be perfectly content. They’re not. They suffer in this very life because they have not put an end to the canker that is “I am”. They have not blown out the self, and allow "me"s and “identity view” to arise again and again. Because they allow "me"s to arise, they begin to crave states of existence. And because they crave states of existence, they suffer.
They worry about what will happen after the body decomposes. They form views about what happens and that causes them anxiety and worry. They are so worried about the future and the next life or lacktherof, that they fail to realize the cessation of suffering and the quenching of self can occur within this very life.
- You assume ascetics can abide in that sphere without experiencing trouble. That simply is not always the case. These meditative attainments and states are temporary. If the ascetic can maintain it, they feel relieved, but the moment that ability goes away and they are unable to, suffering resurfaces. I assure you that starving the body like a Jain is not a blissful activity. It is incredibly painful. Let them execute this body, it won’t bring about the cessation of dukkha or help them.
With their practice, they can see their previous lives and also can see your previous lives while you are here denying rebirth.
If one has memories of lives, be real memories or fake memories, if they cling to those lives and say “mine”, they have not put an end to “me-making”. Rebirth/rebecoming is still taking place in their minds, whenever they say this was me or I was this. Memory is a sankhara. When one clings to a sankhara as self, including past self, or as belonging to oneself they have not attained quenching.
The memories, thoughts, feelings, whatever arises in the body are not “one’s memories” or “your memories”. They are inherently selfless, and belong to no one even if they are clung to or claimed as “mine”.
With their practice, they can also read your mind and see clearly that you are still full of fetters while boasting that your way is better than theirs. They also know about the existence that does not require physical body and abiding in that sphere daily while you are asserting that an untrained/unenlightened person goes poof after the physical body is destroyed. Meanwhile, what kind of super power do you have or can show them? You are like a totally naked amateur in front of them while trying to persuade them that your proposed solution is better. Again, without the rebirth case referring to the next life, you have literally nothing to reply to their criticism. The ascetics will look with contempt at your way as an amateur and can even wreak their rage on you for looking down to their practice.
Let them attempt to read minds. The knowledge of what arises in this mind won’t bring them any closer to quenching. It won’t bring them any closer to dukkha’s cessation. I do not crave any super power or state of existence with a superpower. Many crave that, but that craving is not helpful. Instead I point out the arising of self in the mind, in this very life, and the problems it causes. There is no needed to be so fixated on the theory or idea of rebirths in the next life if the self is constantly being reborn and is experiencing becoming and stress and death in this very life. Here. Now.
It’s better to deal with the problems one is facing right now, in the present, than theorize about problems of the future or worry about problems in the past. And the ascetic way of dealing with those problems is flawed, but experience itself is enough of a teacher in this regard.
Let them wreak their rage, it won’t bring them any closer to ending dukkha.
- Have you taken drugs? I assure you the solution is not reliable and works everytime. I’ve worked with and befriended addicts. I’ve seen people who are high on this drug or high on that drug. They don’t always experience a “good trip”. Some go mad or suffer anxieties. Others suffer pains or begin seeing things that aren’t there. It’s not always a pleasant experience. It’s incredibly inconsistent. The solution to use drugs to end dukkha is not reliable.
If they are displeased and wish to jab the lethal drug into this body, just know that their act will not bring upon the cessation of dukkha.
Indeed, we have some suttas where Gotama is portrayed as the best in the world, and suttas where Gotama is portrayed as failing to convince people and one who doesn’t boast or create any form of self view “I’m the best or I’m better”, none of that. The sutta pitaka is not the work of a single author.
Let humiliation and futility fall upon me. Praise and humiliation are temporary and should not be craved or feared. If one doesn’t put an end to self view in its entirety, one will never be quenched and experience the state of peace known as quenching.
Samana ORsEnTURVI, I will have to agree to disagree about your appraisal of my spiritual growth or your opinions about what my understanding of rebirth is or your accusations that I distort Gotama’s teaching.
The understanding of rebirth as a psychological process, as a process of me-making, rather than literal comes from my own study of the suttas and practice. Even if both literal and psychological interpretations end up true, the latter is more important than the former for quenching in this life.
Did I deny rebirth? There is a difference between denial and non-adoption of doctrines, dogmas, and views. If you wish to understand the position I hold, I kindly ask you consult the suttas of the atthakavagga. Shaking off views and doctrines, one can focus on ending craving, me-making, and reaching the far shore of peace.