Self/Soul in Jainism & Brahmanism vs Buddhism

[Gabriel]

@Mat

It seems like a clear indication being Buddhist they would have been encouraged to teach Buddhism as Brahaminanism

It would be nice to see the concepts taught in each instance. I guess brahmaviharas vs. x? Maybe someone remembers the sutta?

[Mat]

@Gabriel

I guess brahmaviharas vs. x? Maybe someone remembers the sutta?

Here it is, and yes it is the Brahmaviharas SuttaCentral MN97.

Suttas suggest that tranquility and insight should be both taught in tandem for the path to arise.SuttaCentral

[Gabriel]

@Mat

Suttas suggest that tranquility and insight should be both taught in tandem for the path to arise

I know this is a general assumption, but here I was looking for concrete cases where jhana/samadhi is taught in tandem with anatta/not-self…

MN 97 actually contains another message. Sariputta teaches the brahmaviharas as a means to be reborn in brahmaloka - only, in the Brahmin texts this practice is never mentioned! So what it means is that the Sutta basically says “You Brahmins don’t even have an idea how to get to your own favorite realm and have to be told by Buddhist arahants”.

It’s a shame that the Sutta contains no epilogue of the Buddha in the sort of “If you had taught him x he would have reached nibbana or at least become a non-returner”.

[Mat]

@Gabriel

Suttas suggest that tranquility and insight should be both taught in tandem for the path to arise

I know this is a general assumption, but here I was looking for concrete cases where jhana/samadhi is taught in tandem with anatta/not-self…

“Mendicants, sensual pleasures are impermanent, baseless, false, and deceptive, made by illusion, Aneñja-sappaya Sutta: Conducive to the Imperturbable, MN106 has some cases of attaining jhana and insight and attaining brahma and higher worlds/nibbana.

@Gabriel

only, in the Brahmin texts this practice is never mentioned!

What is their preferred method then?

@Gabriel

So what it means is that the Sutta basically says “You Brahmins don’t even have an idea how to get to your own favorite realm and have to be told by Buddhist arahants”.

The Buddha is considered able to tell various destinations of various practices, a quality of a Sammasambuddha AFAIK. Having said that I haven’t read anywhere the Buddha or other arahanths telling Brahmins their practice doesn’t lead to Brahma worlds.

@Gabriel

“If you had taught him x he would have reached nibbana or at least become a non-returner”.

SuttaCentral MN140 has some such practices.

Insight in jhana: SuttaCentral AN4.178

Ariyas born in heavenly realms will attain Nibbana: AN4.123 SuttaCentral

[karl_lew]

@Gabriel

It’s a shame that the Sutta contains no epilogue of the Buddha in the sort of “If you had taught him x he would have reached nibbana or at least become a non-returner”.

@Mat

The Buddha is considered able to tell various destinations of various practices, a quality of a Sammasambuddha AFAIK. Having said that I haven’t read anywhere the Buddha or other arahanths telling Brahmins their practice doesn’t lead to Brahma worlds.

DN33 has a long series of verses starting with “If only, when my body breaks up, after death…” that describes how those of ethical conduct essentially get what they wished for. The sobering take-away from listening to that long sequence is that one must be quite careful about wishes. I.e., one can wish oneself onto the train bound for the Brahma realm or even further. Or one can get off the train entirely.

[Mat]

@karl_lew

one can wish oneself onto the train bound for the Brahma realm or even further.

Wishing is one thing but it is also true it will happen if they have the good kamma for it.