Setting the Record Straight on Certain Modern Theravada Traditions

It is interesting to see you describing Sagatha Vagga (“Verse Section”) as “an appetizer” in the SN collection.

I consider the vagga may be just for protecting and promoting Buddhism in the Indian religious communities. The content of the section presents mainly early Buddhist adaptation of general Indian religious beliefs and societies.

Cf.: Pages 894-6 from SA/SN Three Angas Choong MK.pdf (319.8 KB)

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According to Indologist Johannes Bronkhorst Buddhism emerged with Jainism, the Ajivikas, and other bands of wandering ascetics in the network of city-states that made up Greater Magadha in northeast india. Then with the Mauryan Civilization Buddhism spread West along with the city-state culture of Greater Magadha out of which the Mauryan Civilization emerged. The Samyutta Nikaya has discourses depicting city-state life in and around cities such as Magadha, Savatti, and Vesali. It also depicts a Westward expansion from the homeland of the Ganges River. So there is discussion of Bhikkhus needing to mix with Brahmins, aristocrats, and members of other bands of wandering ascetics. The main message is for the Bhikkhus to understand and maintain the core teachings. I have not seen debate about core doctrine between Buddhism and the Brahmins in the Samyutta Nikaya the way such debate is found in other Nikayas.

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I’ve read that the historical Buddha’s teaching could possibly have been as simple as the mere term “the middle way” with the 4 jhanas added. What do you think?

I think that makes no sense, quite frankly. While I don’t cling to the idea of a precisely 40 year teaching career, I see no reason to doubt that as an accurate but imprecise conveyance of his life course. Over ~40 years, you’re going to say more than 2/5 things.

I think many people have an instinct to be skeptical of tradition without then really looking at what they are proposing as an alternative and applying skepticism to that.

The Samyutta Niaya has 56 samyuttas built around the Sagathavaggasamyutta, Nidanavaggasamyutta, Salayatanavaggasamyutta, and Mahavaggasamyutta. So there is plenty of material that the Buddha could have laid down over 40 years. What I am saying is that it is built off a core structure.

I would have to see more information about where that idea came from. On the face of it it seems incomplete.

The Dhammacakkappavattana Sutta [note 16] is regarded by the Buddhist tradition as the first discourse of the Buddha.[99] Scholars have noted some persistent problems with this view.[100] Originally the text may only have pointed at “the middle way” as being the core of the Buddha’s teaching,[99] which pointed to the practice of dhyana .[52] This basic term may have been extended with descriptions of the eightfold path,[52] itself a condensation of a longer sequence.[101]

According to Tilmann Vetter, the description of the Buddhist path may initially have been as simple as the term “the middle way”.[52] In time, this short description was elaborated, resulting in the description of the eightfold path.[52] Vetter and Bucknell both note that longer descriptions of “the path” can be found, which can be condensed into the Noble Eightfold Path.[52][101]

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Yes, apologies for being unclear (and also, probably, unnecessarily negative). I don’t fine the SN first hypothesis “makes no sense”. I was talking about the idea you called

FWIW, I think sometimes the various camps of SN-1st, DN-1st, etc. are unfortunately forced to present an overly simplistic position for the sake of brevity, but it’s clearly an idea that has been seriously considered.

Greater Magadha in North-East India is an unproven hypothesis. There is no reference to any concept of greater-Māgadha attested in the historical record. Magadha was not a city and was not a civilization either, but was the name of a late-Vedic janapada i.e. “habitation” or “polity” (Definition of a janapada: janāḥ padyante gacchanti yatra saḥ janapadaḥ), whose earlier capital city is said to be Girivraja and later one is said to be Pāṭaliputra. The only mention of Pāṭaliputra in any historical record dateable to circa 250 BCE is in the 5th Major Rock Edict of Aśoka (the third Mauryan Emperor) - and that edict is located in the westernmost part of India possible, the mountains of Girnār (Gujarat) - anyone familiar with Indian geography will know how far it is from Eastern India or the Ganges valley. From the same location, other inscriptions identify it as a seat of Mauryan power and influence. So Pāṭaliputra mentioned there alone, could not have been far from that very location. In all other copies of the same edict at various other locations across India, the word Pāṭaliputra has been replaced with “idha” (so we know they are later copies, and Girnar was the original) - therefore in my understanding Girnar was the Girivraja (pāli: Giribbaja) or Rājagṛha (pāli: Rājagaha) - and Pāṭaliputra was close by.

Thanks for that. Very interesting, indeed!

Debate about Satipatthana, no mention of Mahasatipatthana? Just became aware the other day that Mahasatipatthana includes description of the four jhanas at the close, as part of mindfulness of “ideas”, or “mental objects”, “states of mind” (various PTS translators). Very curious, that the description is lacking in Satipatthana, and that it is Satipatthana that is emphasized in the vipassana-oriented schools.

Striking to me is this characteristic of two of the schools you describe:

Mindfulness of body, feelings, mind, and three marks of existence

What happened to "“ideas”, or “mental objects”, “states of mind”?

Interesting to me that Gautama specified that there were those freed by means of intuitive wisdom, but I don’t believe he specified the way such individuals attained to intuitive wisdom. A summary I wrote previously, for someone (PTS translations):

In MN 70 (Kitagirisutta, PTS 478 p 151), Gautama speaks of “the one who is freed both ways” and “the person who is freed by means of intuitive wisdom”–Gautama says of both, “I, monks, do not say of this monk that there is something to be done through diligence.” He goes on to speak of “the person who is a mental-realiser”, “the person who has won to view”, and “the person who is freed by faith”, “the person who is striving for dhamma”, and “the person striving after faith”. For these last four, Gautama declares “I, monks, say of this monk that there is something to be done through diligence.”

The person freed both ways has “apprehended with the person those peaceful Deliverances which are incorporeal having transcended material shapes; and having seen by means of wisdom his cankers are utterly destroyed.” The person freed by means of intuitive wisdom is abiding “without having apprehended with the person those peaceful Deliverances which are incorporeal having transcended material shapes; yet having seen by means of wisdom his cankers are utterly destroyed.”

“The Deliverances” are outlined in one of the long sermons of the Pali Nikaya D. ii. 70-71–they consist of: 1) “having one’s self external form, one sees forms”; 2) “Unaware of one’s own external form, one sees forms external to one’s self”; 3) “‘Lovely!’–with this thought one becomes intent”; 4-8) the standard arupa jhanas, infinity of ether/space through the cessation of feeling and perceiving.

The formulation of three initial (“material”) states of concentration followed by four further (“immaterial”) states occurs elsewhere in the sermons, though I can’t give you the reference at the moment–I do recall that in that reference, the third of the initial states is referred to as “the beautiful”.

You quote from the video, which I confess I haven’t watched (though I did look at the PowerPoint slides):

The later Buddhaghosa understanding of jhana is you’re aware of a subtle mental image and you are no longer aware of your physical body and you’re no longer aware of mental activity beyond being aware of the subtle mental image.

So within the Thai forest tradition, there’s been research that has shown that that’s probably a later development. You don’t find that teaching in the early teachings in the Samyutta Nikaya.

I’m surprised that I can relate to the description you ascribe to Buddhaghosa. Take me just a little background to explain how.

You are not your body, but you are the consciousness in the body, because of which you have the awareness of “I am”. It is without words, just pure beingness. Meditation means you have to hold consciousness by itself. The consciousness should give attention to itself.

(Gaitonde, Mohan [2017]. Self – Love: The Original Dream [Shri Nisargadatta Maharaj’s Direct Pointers to Reality]. Mumbai: Zen Publications. ISBN 978-9385902833)

From my writing:

I used to talk about the location of consciousness, but a friend of mine would always respond that for him, consciousness has no specific location. As a result, I switched to writing about the placement of attention:

“There can… come a moment when the movement of breath necessitates the placement of attention at a certain location in the body, or at a series of locations, with the ability to remain awake as the location of attention shifts retained through the exercise of presence.”

In his “Genjo Koan”, Dogen wrote:

When you find your place where you are, practice occurs, actualizing the fundamental point.

(“Genjo Koan [Actualizing the Fundamental Point]”, tr. Robert Aitken and Kazuaki Tanahashi, from “Moon in a Dewdrop: Writings of Zen Master Dogen”, p 69, © San Francisco Zen Center)

Given a presence of mind that can “hold consciousness by itself”, activity in the body begins to coordinate by virtue of the sense of place associated with consciousness. A relationship between the free location of consciousness and activity in the body comes forward, and as that relationship comes forward, “practice occurs”. Through such practice, the placement of consciousness is manifested in the activity of the body.

Now the key thing is, that the experience of consciousness at a singular location can be peculiar, as though a location in open space.

Nevertheless, I think “subtle image” is a bad description. The crucial transition is in Dogen’s second statement:

When you find your way at this moment, practice occurs, actualizing the fundamental point…

(ibid)

“When you find your way at this moment”, activity takes place solely by virtue of the free location of consciousness. A relationship between the freedom of consciousness and the automatic activity of the body comes forward, and as that relationship comes forward, practice occurs. Through such practice, the placement of consciousness is manifested as the activity of the body.

Not so much that “you are no longer aware of your physical body and you’re no longer aware of mental activity beyond being aware of the subtle mental image”, as that the singular location of consciousness associated with the singular sense of self comes forward, body and mind are still there but consciousness can take place freely and the activity of the body in inhalation and exhalation follows from the free location of consciousness.

A different sense of mind and body.

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Hey, I’m not ascribing anything to Buddhaghosa, I’m quoting from the transcript from @Dhammabodhi 's video.

Are you going to update/change your teaching material to reflect this? :slight_smile:

According to your transcript, you say “there’s been research that has shown that that’s probably a later development.” – this is a strong statement that implies strong evidence.

Like, you probably shouldn’t say “research has shown” when you mean “Ajahn Thanissaro says this when he talks about jhanas” :cowboy_hat_face: :yellow_heart:

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