I have been very grateful to find the wonderful resources you have made available to the world.
I’ve been reading Venerable Brahmali’s translation of the Vinaya. I’m reading the PDF version, and am currently on Volume 2. In Bu Pc 29 the text skips from 1.14 to 1.16 in a jarring manner. I believe that 1.15 must describe Devadatta eating almsfood prepared for the nun Thullanandā, which I infer from the text of 1.16, but I had to re-read multiple times to ensure I did not miss something in the text. I attach a screenshot of the text. I downloaded the PDFs several months ago, so it is recent, but it is possible it’s been fixed since I downloaded it.
Thanks, Omar, for taking an interest! I hope you don’t mind that I have edited your post slightly—essentially just adding a heading—so as to fit the template suggested by Bhante Sujato.
Yes, you’re right, there is a 1.15, but I am surprised by the sudden appearance of Devadatta, and the claim that he ate almsfood, when he does not appear to be mentioned in the story of the rule. It feels like something is missing before 1.16? Or have I missed something when reading? I became used to all previous rules having a quite rigorous format where there is always a clear logical series that leads to the rule and I cannot seem to find it here
Can’t disagree with your assessment. But there is peyyala in 1.16 of the text which is supposed to omit out repetition. So, that may explain the discontinuity.
One can always consult its parallel to fill in the gap. In the same rule in Dharmaguptaka Vinaya, the Buddha asked Ven Sariputta and Ven Mogallana about the meal. They reported the incident to the Buddha. This passage explains the gap that is missing in the Pali text.
Sariputta and Mogallana told the Buddha, “Even though food is sufficient, in the house of the lay supporter, we are both lowly and dragon among dragon” (This is a jab at Thullananda who criticized them and then praised them when they arrived). The Buddha asked, “Why is that so?”. In response, Sariputta and Mogallana relate the incident to the Buddha saying, “It’s because a Bhikkhuni of Devadatta’s group urging laity to offer them food and drink.”
Aaaah, okay, I think I understand now, thank you! So the nun praised Devadatta and others with him to the head of the family. Then we are to understand Devadatta visited this family for almsfood, knowing she said this, so in this way the nun “had the food prepared” for them, and this is what is not allowed.
I’m not sure if it’s a good idea to read the context from another Vinaya school into Pali Canon. But in this case, they seem to fit. So…
Yes, it seems like Devadatta’s group had been doing so probably on some previous occasions, his group might not necessarily succeeded on that occasion. Still, that’s enough to prompt the establishment of the rule once it was reported. That’s how I interpret the origin story.
Thank you for the effort. Continuing in this thread after previous one got locked.
Regarding the first point, my main concern was with MN50, which I thought many people might read. The title states “Condemnation of Mara” which I think might tempt many people to think that it is fine to condemn evil beings rather than their acts.
PS: MN50 has now been changed “Warning to Mara” so my concern is no longer valid. I think “warning” is quite a good fit.
I too have looked up several alternatives like:
admonish, reprove, lecture, caution/warn
censure, reprimand, rebuke, reproach, reproof
I looked up “censure” in dictionary:
[n] strong criticism or disapproval, esp. when it is the official judgment of an organization
[v] to express strong criticism or disapproval, eg. officially
censure is used to express condemnation or disapproval.
and “admonish”:
[v] to warn someone not to do something, usually in a kind way, or to tell someone to do something
formal/official context
Based on the dictionary, I think “censure” has two meanings 1. to express disapproval 2. to express condemnation. Based on this I think its not ideal, but better by 50% I guess.
How about “admonish”/“admonition”. Would that be a good candidate as it is usually used in kind way it too has formal/official tone. What do you think about this one?
It seems “admonish” is generally regarded as milder than “rebuke”, when in fact we need something stronger. I therefore still think “censure” may be the best word. I get the impression it does not stir up the same negative feelings that “condemn” does.
I’d say that admonish, rebuke, and censure are all uncommon words in every day English. Scold is more common, but very informal. Parents and teachers scold children. Censure is rarely used outside of legal settings and is frequently confused (understandably so) with censor.
As someone who was following along the discussion, it sounded like censure was a fitting word, specifically because of its infrequent, formal, legal use:
I had actually drafted a suggestion of it at this^ point, before Ven. Brahmali explicitly proposed it and without knowing it was rendered as such by other translators.
But I’m not a monastic and have read very little Vinaya to otherwise understand the context, so I didn’t/don’t think my opinion means much in this case
Hi Ven, I’m making a review of the PDF files for sending to the printer. I’ve made a few adjustments to the Suuta files, and I’ll note issues with the Vinaya here.
Currently, I’m hoping to get the final version generated and sent to the printer on Tuesday.
There’s an issue sometimes with notes on untranslated segments. As a rule, don’t do it: notes are for translations, variants are for Pali.
Okay, sure. Is this for future reference or would you like me to do something with this right now? Here is a list of such cases put together by the indefatigable Ven. Nadi:
Now, I think we can get the appearance we need from LaTeX using:
\begin{description}[style=nextline]
To enable this, I have added a class to the HTML. This class is inert in the HTML (though of course we could use it for styling if we liked).
<dl class='nextline'>
So in theory, all we need do is convert the HTML to the LaTeX and it should work as desired. The list items go on the next line, and all are properly aligned to the left.
In theory!
I haven’t actually tested it, so could I ask you to implement it and we’ll see how it goes. If it doesn’t work, we’ll look into other options.
Thanks everyone for your feedback regarding an alternative translation to “condemnation”. I’ve decided to go for “censure”, which I have now implemented in bilara, the translation software.
