Should parallel links and search result links go to aligned translations instead of Pali?

[Snowbird]

I’ve found that there are two situations where I’d rather be sent to an aligned translation than the basic root text.

One is when I search for a Pali phrase using the site search. For example, here:

I have searched for a Pali phrase, however as a non-Pali reader (in the sense that I can only do so much with just the Pali) I would much prefer to be sent to the English-Pali aligned text than the Pali alone. Almost 100% of the time I’m going to need to get to the English translation. And in the case of the IDs (like the 7.1 above) once I get to the English I will have to poke around till I find that.

So for me I’d rather be taken to an aligned text if one exists.

The second case is for parallels. For example:

I’d much rather be taken to a English-Pali text since one exists. For the Ps result there is no aligned text so I would expect to be sent to the Pali. (although there is a legacy English translation.

In the spirit of “decisions not options”, I wonder if what I describe as my preferred UX matches with the majority of users enough that it should be changed.

So in both cases the UX would be:

1. if there is an aligned text in the user’s language, link to that, with translation and root displayed.
2. if there is no aligned text in the user’s language, link to the English aligned text if it exists, with translation and root displayed.
3. If there is no aligned text in any language, link to the root

The basic question is, do the majority of users need to be sent to a root-only result? Because in my above scenario users would still always be sent to a page that included the root.

@Dogen, I believe you have brought this up in the past. I’m trying to think of users who work with a lot of parallels, like @josephzizys and @thomaslaw, who might have an opinion. Perhaps Ven. @Vimala has insight since they work so much with the parallels.

• Continue to send users to root only page
• Send users to an aligned translation + root if it exists.

[Snowbird]

I only added the poll just because I could. I’d much rather hear about your own experience.

Of course Bhante @Sujato’s opinion is necessary to hear.

[josephzizys]

I accidentally voted the wrong way! My preference would usually be to be taken to an aligned presentation with the root text and english translation if one is available.

Ideally the english would be under the root text not above it, but i beleieve theres a plugin for that

On the sutta page the drop downs let me get to parralels and root texts anyway.

[Snowbird]

@josephzizys

I accidentally voted the wrong way!

LOL. I saw your vote and was looking forward to hearing your reason. BTW, you can undo your vote by clicking

Thanks for your feedback!

[Snowbird]

Oh, snap. I just realized that you (@Dogen) created a whole thread for half of this issue:

Search Function Idea

So I’ve had this idea for a while, thought it might be also useful for others so I figured if it’s possible. When I search a term in Pāli, I usually want to go straight to the aligned text instead of the root text. I know the arrows here lead to the plex, but it’s still 2x clicks and load ups (which can take quite a while): [Screenshot_2024-09-15-10-17-32-367_com.android.chrome] So, perhaps the plex could open in the same page, or perhaps we could have a button to a standard trans…

I thought it was a comment in a different thread. Sorry.

[Vimala]

@Snowbird

Perhaps Ven. @Vimala has insight since they work so much with the parallels.

Originally, SuttaCentral was created to provide a way to display the parallels that people like Bhante Analayo and others found. These parallels were mentioned in articles and books, but there was no good quick lookup tool for parallels. So SuttaCentral was created as a tool for scholars and other interested students of the EBTs to do exactly that. The translations were secondary.

However, over the years SuttaCentral’s focus became much more on the translations, first on existing translations in various languages that we now call ‘legacy’, since 2018 on Bhante Sujato’s aligned translations.

I’ve also noticed a move away from SuttaCentral of the scholars that were originally involved as the focus of SuttaCentral shifted. SuttaCentral is now unique in terms of the number of good translations available.

So considering that SuttaCentral is not any more primarily about parallels for a small group of scholars and many other people have joined and can learn from the (English) translations, I think it is a good idea to link to aligned texts where possible.

[srkris]

I would like to see the Pali text if I search using Pali words, since that takes me to the exact line in which it is attested. Without finding the exact line in the result (and the surrounding text i.e. context) my search would be pointless, as i would know which text it is located in, even before clicking the search result. So clicking on a pali search to be redirected to an English result would not be ideal.

The URL is structured well so it is easy to see a translation to one’s preferred language with very little effort.
https://suttacentral.net/thig13.5/pli/ms

Then it is easy to remove the /pli/ms from the end of the URL to see the options to view a translation of choice.

Every user wouldnt be looking for English translations. Sometimes the translation doesnt contain equivalent expressions used in the source text as it omits root words when translated (as the translation doesnt translate idiomatic expressions literally). Sometimes the translation skips large passages entirely if they are repeated from prior suttas.

For those who want to read the results in Pali it is doubly difficult to be led to the translation first and then navigate one’s way back to the source text then search for the same string again using the browser’s search functionality. Doing this 10 times to see the same expression in 10 suttas would want me to give up Suttacentral search altogether.

[sabbamitta]

@srkris

For those who want to read the results in Pali it is doubly difficult to be led to the translation first and then navigate one’s way back to the source text then search for the same string again using the browser’s search functionality.

That is not the idea of the proposal. The idea of the proposal is to link to the bilingual version, Pali aligned with translation, which would fit both those who want to read the Pali as well as those who are learning Pali and want to compare it with their own language.

In any case, if you search for a Pali term, your result should of course include that Pali term.

[Dogen]

As I said in previous thread, a roundabout way to do this is to have Pāli root texts show aligned translations with the N shortcut.

A very weird hack, but perhaps it could work (for both of Bhante’s concerns in OP, but also @srkris as well).

Or perhaps just a simple button here that sends to a bilingual edition here:

@sabbamitta

That is not the idea of the proposal. The idea of the proposal is to link to the bilingual version, Pali aligned with translation, which would fit both those who want to read the Pali as well as those who are learning Pali and want to compare it with their own language.

The only issue with this, if someone wants to just read Pāli, having English translations on the page is an unnecessary nuisance. I’d guess there’s precisely 17 people in the world right now where that’s the case ( ) but still!

[cdpatton]

There’s also the issue of scholars who don’t read every ancient language that EBTs are preserved in. If a scholar isn’t fluent in Pali or Chinese, they’d probably prefer to see it with existing translations just as a general audience reader would. Originally, it was a site studying the Pali sources, and that continues to be the case, but there are people like myself who are interested in Pali as parallels to Chinese sources, rather than vice versa.

I think it would be technically possible to make these behaviors in the SuttaCentral App dependent on a user’s preferences. That would probably be the most flexible solution to the problem. But I can also imagine issues arising with which modern translation a reader would like to land on when clicking a parallel link …

[Dogen]

@cdpatton

which modern translation a reader would like to land on when clicking a parallel link

The translation made by those on these forums, obviously.

[srkris]

@sabbamitta

That is not the idea of the proposal. The idea of the proposal is to link to the bilingual version, Pali aligned with translation, which would fit both those who want to read the Pali as well as those who are learning Pali and want to compare it with their own language.

Thanks, I had misunderstood, but as Dogen says, why not just add an additional link to the chosen translation rather than making the translation the default result?

[mikenz66]

@Dogen

As I said in previous thread, a roundabout way to do this is to have Pāli root texts show aligned translations with the N shortcut.

That would be a useful thing to have, quite apart from how the current proposal goes…

[Snowbird]

@srkris

why not just add an additional link to the chosen translation rather than making the translation the default result?

I will quote from the link I gave about Decisions not Options:

When making decisions these are the users we consider first. A great example of this consideration is software options. Every time you give a user an option, you are asking them to make a decision. When a user doesn’t care or understand the option this ultimately leads to frustration. As developers we sometimes feel that providing options for everything is a good thing, you can never have too many choices, right? Ultimately these choices end up being technical ones, choices that the average end user has no interest in. It’s our duty as developers to make smart design decisions and avoid putting the weight of technical choices on our end users.

This isn’t exactly what we are talking about, but the principle still stands. The interface is already overcrowded. Adding another button isn’t the solution, imho.

There is always going to be a default behaviour and it makes sense that the default behavior should be one that supports the majority of users.

@cdpatton

There’s also the issue of scholars who don’t read every ancient language that EBTs are preserved in. If a scholar isn’t fluent in Pali or Chinese, they’d probably prefer to see it with existing translations just as a general audience reader would.

That’s an excellent point I hadn’t even considered. I had assumed that translators/scholars exploring the parallels would necessarily prefer Pali only.

@Dogen

The only issue with this, if someone wants to just read Pāli, having English translations on the page is an unnecessary nuisance. I’d guess there’s precisely 17 people in the world right now where that’s the case ( ) but still!

Yes. I don’t doubt that there are people who would not want to cast their eyes upon a translation. But I think it’s safe to say this is a clear minority. I’d probably even go so far as to say that among the people who only want to see the Pali there are those who probably aren’t as qualified to read the Pali as they think they are. But that’s a different issue.

Back to ideas… How about if searches that would match a Pali text also returned English segments in the search results, like this:

Then someone could click on the Pali segment if they wanted to go to a Pali only text, or if they wanted they could go to the translation.

It adds more information to the search results, but it doesn’t require an extra button. It just extends the existing pattern.

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Now, the following is kind of adjacent to this discussion, but I just noticed what I think is sub-optimal behaviour.

Lets say you are on a root text. You select a segment by clicking on it:

You can see that when you click on 3.1 it adds this to the url as #3.1. So far so good.

Then you open parallels and click on Bhante Sujato’s translation.

In the process of going to the translation, that #3.1 gets removed. However, if that could be kept in the url, then you would be taken right to that segment:

Like I said, it’s not directly related to the matter at hand, but it would improve the experience of someone who was sent to a root text page segment (either intentionally or accidentally) and wants to get to the translation. I’m not sure how that would be done technically, but I think it would be an improvement. (and of course this only helps if a segmented translation exists/is selected)

Thanks for all the feedback! Keep it coming!