SN 15:3 - Where is my suffering in past lives?

Discussion
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I am confused about suttas like SN 15:3 when the Buddha talks about all the suffering of past lives. If I inherited my kamma from say, Charles Dickens, what do the tears he shed have to do with me in this life? From my perspective Charles Dickens was merely a heap of khandhas experiencing displeasure, and now I am another heap of khandhas doing the same thing. How is the pain that the khandhas of Charles Dickens suffered supposed to motivate me on the path? And for that matter all the other heaps? Where is my suffering in all of that?

It seems to me that a more motivating discourse would be an explanation of how this suffering impacts whatever it is that moves on between lives. Especially since he is often talking to monks who or already sotāpannas. What is the point in telling sotāpannas that ā€œtheyā€ suffered when they already clearly donā€™t see a self in the khandhas. Why would they care if previous heaps of khandhas suffered?

What am I missing?

Thank you so much :slight_smile:

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I could easily be wrong, but I think the point of the sutta is for us to ignore trying to figure out the beginning of existence and concentrate on ending the entire mass of suffering.

Kamma that you inherited led to this life and the kamma you create will determine the next one. Kamma is constantly being generated by intentional action. In rebirth, the personality doesnā€™t transmigrate but the kamma ripens in a new life due to craving and willful action. The fact that you have heard the Dhamma is good news! The Noble Eightfold Path path is to know the 4 Noble Truths to the extent that you can put an end to rebirth once and for all. Even a sotapanna wouldnā€™t want any more lives!

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Do read some rebirth case studies.

The people who remembered past lives can understand that the past lives is as much them as their younger selves are them.

Letā€™s do a thought experiment.

Youā€™re extremely long lived human who gets amnesia every 100 years. In the past from the time of prehistory until now, you had suffered many times the death of loved ones, being beaten, limps get cut off, but every 100 years you get restored to heath and forgotten the past.

Is your past self worth considering in your quest to end suffering? Or are you attached to memory as self?

The 5 aggregates are all there are, since there never was a self. The point of suffering is that these 5 aggregates suffer, the point to end suffering is to end cause for the arising of the 5 aggregates, then no more suffering after the final cessation of the 5 aggregates.

Are you identifying personality as self?

Anyway, in some rebirth cases, often some aspects of the personality like language knowledge, customs, habits, hobbies, obsessions, fear etc does carry over. But they are all not self.

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No, that would be a mistake.

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You are probably focusing on the one who suffers rather than the aggregates themselves being the burden. In SN22.22 we read:

And what is the burden?

Katamo ca, bhikkhave, bhāro?

The five grasping aggregates, it should be said.

PaƱcupādānakkhandhā tissa vacanÄ«yaį¹.

What five?

Katame paƱca?

The grasping aggregates of form, feeling, perception, choices, and consciousness.

RÅ«pupādānakkhandho, vedanupādānakkhandho, saƱƱupādānakkhandho, saį¹…khārupādānakkhandho, viƱƱāį¹‡upādānakkhandho;

This is called the burden.

ayaį¹ vuccati, bhikkhave, bhāro.

And who is the bearer of the burden?

Katamo ca, bhikkhave, bhārahāro?

The individual, it should be said;

Puggalo tissa vacanÄ«yaį¹.

the venerable of such and such name and clan.

Yvāyaį¹ āyasmā evaį¹nāmo evaį¹…gotto;

This is called the bearer of the burden.

ayaį¹ vuccati, bhikkhave, bhārahāro.

There is also an aesthetic link between the simile in SN15:3 and other suttas. For example, likening the oceans to a collection of tears is not only due to liquidity, but also the taste/rasa. In AN8.20, the Buddhaā€™s teachings is contrasted with the teachings of the asuras through the analogy of the ocean:

The ocean has just one taste, the taste of salt.In the same way, this teaching and training has one taste, the taste of freedom.

Seyyathāpi, pahārāda, mahāsamuddo ekaraso loį¹‡araso; evamevaį¹ kho, pahārāda, ayaį¹ dhammavinayo ekaraso, vimuttiraso.

When they reach the ocean, all the great riversā€”that is, the Ganges, Yamunā, AciravatÄ«, SarabhÅ«, and MahÄ«ā€”lose their names and clans and are simply reckoned as ā€˜the oceanā€™.In the same way, when they go forth from the lay life to homelessness, all four classesā€”aristocrats, brahmins, peasants, and menialsā€”lose their former names and clans and are simply reckoned as ā€˜ascetics who follow the Sakyanā€™.

Seyyathāpi, pahārāda, yā kāci mahānadiyo, seyyathidaį¹ā€”gaį¹…gā yamunā aciravatÄ« sarabhÅ« mahÄ«, tā mahāsamuddaį¹ patvā jahanti purimāni nāmagottāni, ā€˜mahāsamuddoā€™ tveva saį¹…khaį¹ gacchanti;evamevaį¹ kho, pahārāda, cattārome vaį¹‡į¹‡Äā€”khattiyā, brāhmaį¹‡Ä, vessā, suddā, te tathāgatappavedite dhammavinaye agārasmā anagāriyaį¹ pabbajitvā jahanti purimāni nāmagottāni, ā€˜samaį¹‡Ä sakyaputtiyāā€™ tveva saį¹…khaį¹ gacchanti.

More generally, the puggala who bears the burden is unlikely to remember past lives, but would still bear witness to the tricks of the asuras.

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What am I missing?

I think thatā€™s the goalā€¦ to show the monks what the best option is: to awaken or to remain suffering and filling oceans with their tearsā€¦

Why is that? This transmigration has no known beginning. ā€¦ This is quite enough for you to become disillusioned, dispassionate, and freed regarding all conditions.ā€

SuttaCentral

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The body is old karma. Actions, speech and thought are new karma. So, your body is the result of Charles Dickens actions, speech and thoughts. Actions, speech and thoughts can be good, bad or neutral. There is bright karma and dark karma and neither bright nor dark karma. Dark karma is motivated by hatred, greed and delusion. Bright karma (and Iā€™m just guessing) is motivated by the four Brahma viharas. Neither bright nor dark would be any action, speech or thought accompanied by the destruction of the hatred, greed and delusion. Thatā€™s how I see it.

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I think the point of such suttas is not that there was a lot of suffering in past lives, but that it will continue in future lives as well as long as you donā€™t get ā€œdisillusioned, dispassionate, and freed regardingā€ it all, in whatever realm you were reborn or may still be reobrn.

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See the thing is, you donā€™t actually believe you were Charles Dickens in a previous life :rofl: . Nor do you actually have any memories from that life :laughing: . So its unreasonable to expect yourself to have any feeling for the pain those khandas suffered.

You do, on the other hand believe that you were the 18 year old seen in your high school almanac. Because you have memories from that time. And you suffer even today when you think of the suffering those 18 year oldā€™s khandas endured - knowledge of that suffering in the past motivates you today to avoid repeating the same mistakes over and over again. Or you might even be suffering today because of the actions of that 18 year oldā€¦ so you resolve not to make mistakes today that your 70 year old self would blame you for!

The sotapanna has given up the view that the body is the self (sakkayaditthi) - however they have not yet given up the conceit that there is/is not a self (attavada) that migrates from life to life and which might be eternal/ liable to annihilation.

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Yes, that is indeed my point. These aggregates I have are deep motivation, but the aggregates of past lives are gone and their suffering does not matter to this life in regards to motivation on the path. In regards to my inherited kamma, yes they matter, but not in regards to motivation.

It is the same as the entity which lives 100 years and then forgets everything. If the aggregates are restored to their original state that is the same as being reborn. It is the current set of aggregates (or perfectly restored aggregates in this case) which need to be seen as they really are. Knowing that another set of aggregates suffered does not seem to matter.

As a puthujjana, all I know is the aggregates. I see a self in the five aggregates no matter how I deny that truth, no matter how many times I think, ā€œNot mine. This I am not. This is not myself.ā€ Whether I see personality or some other mental activity as my self, I donā€™t know. But I have to concede that I see a self in the aggregates because I am not a sotāpanna.

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I in fact donā€™t think itā€™s even relevant who I was in a previous life, but, hey maybe I was Charles Dickens! Come on!! :rofl:

Our younger selves are not the same as being reborn. Those are the same aggregates and donā€™t apply in this case.

I am speaking only of the aggregates, and the sotapanna does not see the aggregates as a self. Yes, conceit is there until the very end, but not seeing a self in the aggregates. When the Buddha talks about suffering in past lives he is talking about the aggregates. Being beheaded, crying for your dead motherā€”all aggregates. Which is actually why I donā€™t see why the sotapanna would care about these discourses at all.

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Yes, but this is suffering of aggregates. Each set of aggregates suffers and then dissipates. Yes, another set of aggregates will inherit my kamma, just as my current set of aggregates did. Itā€™s all aggregates.

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I think I can see what youā€™re saying about itā€™s all aggregates. Rupa contacts the senses and feeling arises, perceptions arise, judgments and decisions are made and consciousness assimilates it all as being ā€œmeā€. The aggregates are suffering for ā€œme". The aggregates are the canker. The aggregates are to be abandoned. If considering past lives isnā€™t a motivator, donā€™t concern yourself with it. The noble eightfold path is about dealing with the present anyway.

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I had the same question that I asked myself and other people before, unfortunately without getting anywhere of a satisfaction answer.

It took a while before I found this SN12.17 Acelakassapasutta and moved on so I hope you can do the same too.

With metta,

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I agree, and I do not concern myself with it. Iā€™m just trying to understand this sutta, which really doesnā€™t have anything to do with my practice :upside_down_face:

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Yes, I find there are many questions I have that give no answers. I continually remind myself of the poison arrow and move on. But sometimes I get stuck, and I really want to understand the Buddhaā€™s reason for stating something. The Buddha placing emphasis on tears and blood from previous lives (which is 100% aggregate-based) just confuses me. He seems to be placing meaning on the actual past-life suffering of the aggregates. I just donā€™t see how there can be any meaning in that.

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If thatā€™s the case, then I would agree that this is what the sutta is about:

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More than likely, the Buddha is trying to dissuade his audience from considering making merit and being reborn as their spiritual goal by pointing out that theyā€™ve been slogging through innumerable lifetimes to no real liberation that is eternal. His audience does not think they those lives are ā€œjust heaps of aggregates,ā€ nor does the Buddha apparently. Thereā€™s a continuity of sorts that will come to an end if a person puts their mind to it.

Also, I donā€™t understand why the audience would be assumed to be stream-enterers. The audience could have been a bunch of newly ordained monks.

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Because they have (ā€œselfā€) compassion.

There is a bit of a paradox, sure. I canā€™t logically prove that you should care about all of these empty, non self, etc. phenomena. But the suttas are consistent in this non-rational emotional stance.

Suffering is aversive, non-suffering is desired. Contemplating your vast suffering motivates you to escape the cycles of rebirth where that suffering took place (samvega). Just like the memory of touching a hot stove motivates you to not do so again, the memory of painful lives motivates you to avoid taking another life.

itā€™s the same paradox with self as with other. Why should the Buddha have cared about all us empty, non-self beings? I canā€™t logically prove it was the right stance, but he was compassionate and motivated to teach us how to end our suffering.

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Think of it in terms of one life. The deeds done as a teenager werenā€™t done by you, but you have to experience the results today. The same with past lives. The other meaning is that samsara isnā€™t something desirable. Your future lives will be filled with much dukkha, in various ways. Itā€™s a call to give it all up.

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