SN 22.81 and the distinctly buddhist teachings found in it

Discussion
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It was a good gesture, :slightly_smiling_face: and I’m sorry I responded so bruskly. But just to explain, in the spirit of friendship: since you didn’t directly address or even acknowledge the points I brought up in reply to yours, it felt like you were just shifting the topic. Like, “OK, so that line of reasoning didn’t work, let’s forget about it and try another.” In that way there isn’t a mutual discussion, but just one person trying to convince another. That’s what it felt like, anyway, but I realize my mindset may have been a bit affected by the post preceding yours.

On top of that, it had nothing to do with SN22.81 specifically anymore, which after all is the topic here. It’s helpful to have an objective basis in a discussion, and that’s what the suttas provide. Of course, we all interpret the suttas in a certain way, but without reference to the suttas at all, it becomes purely personal opinion. On a site called SuttaCentral I prefer to stay more objective about things. What the absence of self means to me personally I therefore don’t find that interesting. (Also, as a Bhikkhu, we don’t try to discuss things in that way with lay people, to prevent making certain claims that are an offense in the monastic code.)

I hope you understand, and maybe we’ll continue this discussion somewhere else one day.

3 Likes
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Namo Buddhaya!

As i undererstand the dhamma, it is not easy to find a living being who has not previously been a monk in a dispensation of a Buddha but then grasped the teachings incorrectly… who has been a nun… who has been a layman… who has been a laywoman in a dispensation of a Buddha but then grasped the teachings incorrectly.

I hestitated to say this because it might be discouraging but you should rather be discouraged from being settled in wrong views.

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It’s really implied in the texts

At Savatthi. There the Blessed One said: "From an inconstruable beginning comes transmigration. A beginning point is not evident, though beings hindered by ignorance and fettered by craving are transmigrating & wandering on. A being who has not been your mother at one time in the past is not easy to find… A being who has not been your father… your brother… your sister… your son… your daughter at one time in the past is not easy to find.

“Why is that? From an inconstruable beginning comes transmigration. A beginning point is not evident, though beings hindered by ignorance and fettered by craving are transmigrating & wandering on. Long have you thus experienced stress, experienced pain, experienced loss, swelling the cemeteries — enough to become disenchanted with all fabricated things, enough to become dispassionate, enough to be released.” SN 15.14-19

Then Ghaṭīkāra and Jotipāla went to the Buddha Kassapa, bowed and sat down to one side. Ghaṭīkāra said to the Buddha Kassapa, ‘Sir, this is my dear friend Jotipāla, a brahmin student. Please give him the going forth.’ And Jotipāla the brahmin student received the going forth, the ordination in the Buddha’s presence.
…
Ānanda, you might think: ‘Surely the brahmin student Jotipāla must have been someone else at that time?’ But you should not see it like this. I myself was the student Jotipāla at that time.”

That is what the Buddha said. SuttaCentral

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It is implied “what” in the texts?

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To come back on this:

SN22.81 is, i feel, about being aware that our subjective world, this inner world, arises conditionally, always here and now. It is any moment created, produced, here and now. It is fully caused and governed by conditions, such as sakkaya ditthi’s, other views, lobha, moha, asmi mani, doubts etc. It arises any moment as a projection of the mind.

This whole subjective reality with its subjective way of regarding ourself, others, situations, all the feelings accompaning this, all these emotional reactions upon this or that, this whole subjective world with its subjective understanding, is completely arising due to conditions here and now and governed by them.

It is not like this is “the” reality, Truth. But often it is totally ignored that all we experience is just dream-like, created, mere result of conditions, an interplay of many factors. It can feel so real, so true, so absolute for us.

If one arrives at a view that sees and knows that this subjective world and understanding is dependendly arising any moment, one has a kind of wisdom that is able to treath it as dream-like, and take it no so seriously anymore. I am just beginning to get some taste of this.

"That’s how you should know and see in order to end the defilements in the present life.”

This is not really a comfortable truth, because we like to hear, and be confirmed that what we experience, how we experience things, and see things, is all very real, true.

Often one demands attention for what one experiences or what one things, understands etc. One demands that others take this all very seriously. I believe this is really what ego does. It is in practice really diffult to let go. Demanding attention for our thoughts, views, ideas, emotions, etc. is like demanding attention for Me. Buddha saw this as a deep fetter, justly.

I know because i know this fetter.

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Citta, like viññana, is conditioned by nama-rupa. With the cessation of nama-rupa, citta ceases. SN 47.42