SNP 5.7 - When all Dharma are struck down

This is one of the densest, most critically examined poems of the entire canon. It’s full of linguistic pitfalls, variant readings, and a cryptic message. :slight_smile:

Let’s tackle it piece by piece (my attempt at a translation):

“Eko ahaṁ sakka mahantamoghaṁ,
(iccāyasmā upasīvo)
Anissito no visahāmi tārituṁ;
Ārammaṇaṁ brūhi samantacakkhu,
Yaṁ nissito oghamimaṁ tareyyaṁ”.

I’m alone, Sakyan, facing the great flood,
(thus spoke Venerable Upasīva)
I can not cross over without a support.
Tell me the foundation, All-Seeing One,
Supported by which I may cross the flood.

It starts off emotional, sincere, by a Venerable, who we presume has good ethics, doing everything right, but still left on the precipice of the flood, pleading the Buddha for something by which he can cross the flood.

“Ākiñcaññaṁ pekkhamāno satimā,
(upasīvāti bhagavā)
Natthīti nissāya tarassu oghaṁ;
Kāme pahāya virato kathāhi,
Taṇhakkhayaṁ nattamahābhipassa”.

Observing nothingness, having recollection,
(Bhagavā said to Upasīva)
You should cross the flood depending on the ‘Doesn’t exist’.
Having abandoned desire, abstaining from speech,
Seek the destruction of craving night and day.

Satimā: I’m not trying to write something for general consumption, just glossing out; therefore, I’m trying to capture all the nuances being as literal as possible. :slight_smile:

Abstaining from speech is a very important point, which I’ll tie to nāma down to road.

It seems the Buddha is giving a clear instruction on a specific contemplation regarding Nothingness to cross the flood. That should be it, this is the answer. But the next part is interesting, and the reasons why Upasīva keeps insisting on questions is not apparent:

“Sabbesu kāmesu yo vītarāgo,
(iccāyasmā upasīvo)
Ākiñcaññaṁ nissito hitvā maññaṁ;
Saññāvimokkhe parame vimutto*,
Tiṭṭhe nu so tattha anānuyāyī”.

One who’s gone beyond lust in all desires,
(thus spoke Venerable Upasīva)
Depending on nothingness, having abandoned conception,
Liberated with / Intent on the supreme liberation of perception:
Would he remain there, being a non-traveler?

Mañña: I’m reading this straightforward as “conception”, which might be ideological. :slight_smile: Maññi sometimes has the sense of Conceit, as in pride as a vice, however, I think this meaning of the word is dependent on mañña being literally “conception”, as attested numerous times in the suttas (also remember, abstaining from speech?).

*: MS2500 edition reads this , while Nidd and PTS reads this as <‘dhimutto>. @Alex-Wynne wrote whole pages on this. MN 105 has examples of how this “intent on” meaning of <‘dhimutto> is testified.

This is an important distinction, that I admit I don’t know how to read.

The theme of this poem is, generally, Upasīva’s anxiety on what happens when one is liberated. So I don’t think he’s asking an abstract question about someone being intent on liberation, remaining in the rebirth of nothingness dimension - that seems way too scholastic and weird for a poem.

But then, that line of reading contradicts what happens next in the poem. So, perhaps it is indeed a question about someone being an anāgāmī that’s fixated on the basis of nothingness.

“Sabbesu kāmesu yo vītarāgo,
(upasīvāti bhagavā)
Ākiñcaññaṁ nissito hitvā maññaṁ;
Saññāvimokkhe parame vimutto,
Tiṭṭheyya so tattha anānuyāyī”.

One who’s gone beyond lust in all desires,
(Bhagavā said to Upasīva)
Depending on nothingness, having abandoned conception,
Liberated with / Intent on the supreme liberation of perception:
He could remain there, being a non-traveler.

Moving on.

“Tiṭṭhe ce so tattha anānuyāyī,
Pūgampi vassānaṁ samantacakkhu;
Tattheva so sītisiyā vimutto,
Cavetha viññāṇaṁ tathāvidhassa”.

If he could remain there, being a non-traveler,
Even for so many years, O All-seeing One—
Could he, right there, cool down and be liberated?
Could the consciousness of someone like that die off?

There’s some interesting things (like why mention “heaps of years”?) but, moving on. :slight_smile:

“Accī yathā vātavegena khittā,
(upasīvāti bhagavā)
Atthaṁ paleti na upeti saṅkhaṁ;
Evaṁ munī nāmakāyā vimutto,
Atthaṁ paleti na upeti saṅkhaṁ”.

As a flame, blown away with the force of wind,
(Bhagavā said to Upasīva)
Comes to its conclusion, not a subject of classification;
So does a sage, freed from the apparatus of naming,

Come to his conclusion, not a subject of classification.

How nāma is treated in Pāli is weird. Nāma doesn’t (just) refer to a person’s name, but the assemblage of mental qualities that allow them to name, appropriate, touch and cling to things: According to Sariputta, nāma is vedanā, saññā, cetanā, phasso, manasikāro.

Very weird to think that these are our names. They’re functions of perception, feeling, intention, contact and attention - the processes by which we engage with the world. Rather, they’re things by which we name the world.

That’s one thing. But is it also that we’re called by what we feel, what we touch, what we perceive, etc? That’s not altogether out of the picture, either.

This is why I’m reading nāmakāya as apparatus of naming.

Now, we do come a full circle though!

If nāma is all those attributes; then interestingly, a sage freed from this apparatus can no longer be classified either! So, “One who doesn’t name things, can not be named” either. :slight_smile:

“Atthaṅgato so uda vā so natthi,
Udāhu ve sassatiyā arogo;
Taṁ me munī sādhu viyākarohi,
Tathā hi te vidito esa dhammo”.

“Atthaṅgatassa na pamāṇamatthi,
(upasīvāti bhagavā)
Yena naṁ vajjuṁ taṁ tassa natthi;
Sabbesu dhammesu samohatesu,
Samūhatā vādapathāpi sabbe”ti.

“One gone to his conclusion—does he not exist?
Or is he eternally free from affliction?
O Sage, answer me well clearly;
For indeed this Dharma is known to you.”

“There’s no measuring the one gone to his conclusion.
(Bhagavā said to Upasīva)
There’s nothing by which they could speak of him.
When all Dharma have been struck down altogether;
Likewise all manner of speech are struck down altogether too.”

Just as it’s problematic to never use a different word when translating a word in different contexts, so it is problematic to pick and choose a reading based on our preferences. :slight_smile:

Upasīva is asking “This Dharma is known to you, give me that!” to Buddha, when Buddha is saying “What Dharma? All such Dharma to describe him have been eradicated.”

One who does not name the world, has no name by which others might call him. This kind of reflexive point is very important, I think. This poem has ample examples of talking about both.

Vādapathāpi: Is another very interesting word. It’s sometimes used in a way as “Manner of Doctrine” or things like that. Therefore, there is a reading that says something like:

When all Principles have been struck down altogether;
Likewise all Doctrines are struck down altogether too.

But, this might be pushing too far. :slight_smile:

There’s something to tie this to SN12.44, where the origin of the world is equated to contact, and the rest of DO - the world is born through contact, the world is what we experience.

Do we have a name, or is there just names floating around? Are we what we make of the world?

The absence of this division, might be forming the basis of non-dual, non-conceptual ideas spelled out explicitly in later Buddhism.

There’s so many things to be uncovered and analysed with this poem, and I can barely scratch the surface. So I’ll be happy to hear where I might be wrong, pushing things too far, or if you have otherwise anything else to contribute !

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I think instead of “Doesn’t exist” it should mean extinguish or cessation or something that means nibbana instead of Exist/Doesn’t exist. Btw I have no knowledge of Pali and I am just guessing according other suttas.

If nama means vedana,sanna,cetana etc why can’t we take it as mind? namarupa - mind body complex.

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‘Doesn’t exist’ is the translation for ‘Natthi’, which literally just means ‘(It) Doesn’t exist’. :slight_smile: See below:

“Ākiñcaññaṁ pekkhamāno satimā,
(upasīvāti bhagavā)
Natthīti nissāya tarassu oghaṁ;
Kāme pahāya virato kathāhi,
Taṇhakkhayaṁ nattamahābhipassa”.

Observing ‘There’s nothing’ in the meditation, especially in the third formless realm, is a common trope in the suttas. See AN 4.190 with Bhikkhu Sujato’s translation, where he renders “Natthi kiñcī’ti” as ‘There’s nothing at all’:

Going totally beyond the dimension of infinite consciousness, aware that ‘there is nothing at all’, he enters and remains in the dimension of nothingness.

Good question. It also means contact, by the way.

Nāmarūpa is an ancient Vedic word, glossing simply ‘Name-and-form’. In many Vedic texts, this straightforward meaning is apparent - a person has a name, and they have a form.

For some reason, Buddhists lumped together all those factors above into Nāma. So suddenly, your Name is vedana, sanna, cetana, etc;.

I think it goes both ways that, these are how one names the outside world, but also, things by which one is named.

For the first part, when you think “This is an apple, I love this apple, I want to eat this apple, I grab this apple”, this is how you grasp and name the object in front of you.

On the other hand, someone observing your form, would say “This person sees this apple, they eat this apple, they delight in this apple”, these are again verbal descriptions of the way you interact with the world.

This is why I think all these things are called Name. :slight_smile:

Here, the word is Nāmakāya. Kāya could be a substitute for Rūpa, but I doubt it: For the simple reason that it seems to describe a practitioner that’s living in the third base of formless realms (Arūpa realms); there, they don’t have a rūpa to begin with. Therefore, I think Nāmakāya means The Name Complex, or as I called it, “Apparatus of Naming”.

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I think you should check out MN 106, where it describes dimension of nothingness.

Furthermore, a noble disciple reflects: ‘Sensual pleasures in this life and in lives to come, sensual perceptions in this life and in lives to come, visions in this life and in lives to come, perceptions of visions in this life and in lives to come, and perceptions of the imperturbable; all are perceptions. Where they cease without anything left over, that is peaceful, that is sublime, namely the dimension of nothingness.’

‘This is empty of a self or what belongs to a self.’ Practicing in this way and meditating on it often their mind becomes confident in this dimension.

Furthermore, a noble disciple reflects: ‘I don’t belong to anyone anywhere! And nothing belongs to me anywhere!’ Practicing in this way and meditating on it often their mind becomes confident in this dimension.

Because “All exists” and “Nothing exists” are defined as wrong view, I think it’s best to stay away from Nihilistic view - although it might still easily result in dimension of nothingness.

You are right, Perceptions or conceiving is part of Nama.

Regarding formless realms, DO defines Consciousness ↔ Namarupa and that means where there is consciousness there is nama rupa and vice versa. If formless realm has consciousness(I think dimension of nothingess does), then according to DO, they have namarupa. Because consciousness itself has an object(form) as it’s content, therefor consciousness is not possible without form.

But this rupa(form) may be vastly different from how we see forms. Or this rupa also doesn’t obey 4 elements(Earth, Fire etc). Example: If we contemplate nothingness, nothingness is an object to the mind - thus it’s form. Nothingness defined by any other thing means it’s an object, Nothingness not defined by anything, can’t be talked about and there is nothing to talk about.

Also if we take on practical means, those who practice(not self, nothingness or other formless) may know that although dimension of nothingness is called formless - it’s not without form. I am not 100% sure on this, but I welcome those who have practiced to verify this.

“Nothing exists” (as an ontological statement about the reality of the world) is a different sentence than “Doesn’t exist” or “There’s nothing at all”, especially in the context of the awareness during meditation. :slight_smile:

See below for going beyond form:

DN 16 Going totally beyond perceptions of form, with the disappearance of perceptions of impingement, not focusing on perceptions of diversity, aware that ‘space is infinite’, they enter and remain in the dimension of infinite space.

AN 9.24 There are sentient beings that have gone totally beyond perceptions of form. With the disappearance of perceptions of impingement, not focusing on perceptions of diversity, aware that ‘space is infinite’, they have been reborn in the dimension of infinite space.

So, I don’t know how you read into DO, but there are beings explained in the canon that are beyond having form, or observing form. So, there’s that. :slight_smile:

See, They are aware that space is inifinite - that’s definitely an object for mind. :smile:

It clearly states this is an attainment related to perceptions - they only have one perception and don’t have diverse perceptions. But that one perception is itself an object to the mind, without an object to the mind - you would have cessation of perception ayatana.

You are right that according to suttas, being of formless realms don’t have a body, shape, location etc. But that’s not to say they don’t have namarupa.

And without diverse forms can you define infinite space?

Mendicant, the element of light appears due to the element of darkness. The element of beauty appears due to the element of ugliness. The element of the dimension of infinite space appears due to the element of form. The element of the dimension of infinite consciousness appears due to the element of the dimension of infinite space. The element of the dimension of nothingness appears due to the element of the dimension of infinite consciousness. The element of the dimension of neither perception nor non-perception appears due to the element of the dimension of nothingness. The element of the cessation of perception and feeling appears due to the element of cessation.”

This is my rather free translation:

Nothing (worthy) to care about or to remember.

Because there is nothing (worthy to care about or to remember), one crosses the flood.

Having abandoned pleasures and ended conversations,

You should constantly strive to end craving.

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My interpretation (in Sanskrit and English):

upaśivamāṇavapṛcchā
The set of questions asked by the youngster Upaśiva

“eko ’haṃ śākya mahāntam ogham (ity āyuṣmān upaśivaḥ)
aniśrito na viṣahe taritum.
ālambanaṃ brūhi samantacakṣo,
yan niśrita ogham imaṃ tareyam..”

“Alone and not depending on any support, O Śākyan, (said the venerable Upaśiva)
I wouldn’t be capable of swimming across the mighty flood
Declare for me a support, O all-seeing one
relying on which I might swim across this flood”

“ākiñcanyaṃ prekṣamāṇaḥ smṛtimān, (upaśiveti bhagavān)
nāstīti niśritya tarasvaugham.
kāmān prahāya virataḥ kathābhyaḥ,
tṛṣṇākṣayam aharnaktam abhipaśya..”

Being a mentally alert (or mindful) one who understands total non-posession (O Upaśiva, said Bhagavān)
Depending on what-is-not, you may swim across the flood
Abandoning desires, and desisting from arguments
Concentrate on ending craving, day and night.

“sarveṣu kāmeṣu yo vītarāgaḥ, (ity āyuṣmān upaśivaḥ)
ākiñcanyaṃ niśrito hitvā mānyam.
saṃjñāvimokṣe parame ’dhimuktaḥ,
tiṣṭhen nu sa tatrānanuyāyī..”

One who doesn’t indulge in any sensual desire (said the venerable Upaśiva)
Depending on non-posession, having abandoned conceit
Intent on achieving the supreme release from cognition
Can they remain there being non-dependent (not relying-on/following anything)

“sarveṣu kāmeṣu yo vītarāgaḥ, (upaśiveti bhagavān)
ākiñcanyaṃ niśrito hitvā mānyam.
saṃjñāvimokṣe parame 'dhimuktaḥ,
tiṣṭhet sa tatrānanuyāyī..”

One who doesn’t indulge in any sensual desire (O Upaśiva, said Bhagavān)
Depending on non-posession, having abandoned conceit
Intent on achieving the supreme release from cognition
They can remain there being non-dependent (not relying-on/following anything)

“tiṣṭhec cet sa tatrānanuyāyī,
pūgam api varṣāṇāṃ samantacakṣo.
tatraiva sa śītaḥ syād vimuktaḥ,
cyaveta vijñānaṃ tathāvidhasya..”

Even if they remain there being non-dependent
for many years, O all-seeing one
right there if they got cooled down, released
might such a person’s consciousness pass away?

“arcir yathā vātavegena kṣiptā, (upaśiveti bhagavān)
astam palāyati nopaiti saṃkhyām.
evaṃ munir nāmakāyād vimukto,
'stam eti nopaiti saṃkhyām..”

Like how a flame, thrown at the speed of the wind (O Upaśiva, said Bhagavān)
rushes into disappearance, and (thereafter) cannot be named
in that way, the Muni (sage), freed from all groups of appellations/labels
disappears, and (thereafter) cannot be named

“astaṅgataḥ sa uta vā sa nāsti,
utāho vai śāśvatiko ’rogaḥ.
tan me mune sādhu vyākuruṣva,
tathā hi te vidita eṣa dharmaḥ..”

Have they just disappeared, or do they not exist?
Or else are they verily eternal and hale
Explain this well, O Muni (sage)
For this matter is truly known to you.

“astaṅgatasya na pramāṇam asti, (upaśiveti bhagavān)
yenainaṃ udyeta tat tasya nāsti.
sarveṣu dharmeṣu samuddhṛteṣu,
samuddhṛtā vādapathā api sarve..” iti.

For those that have disappeared there is no standard of comparison (O Upaśiva, said Bhagavān)
That (adjectival quality) by which they could be described, they don’t have (such an adjectival quality)
when everything has been eradicated
eradicated too is every manner of description.

upaśivamāṇavapṛcchā ṣaṣṭhī.
The sixth set of questions, asked by the youngster Upaśiva

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Interesting! Most notably, you read Nāmakāya as just a synonym for Nāmarūpa - do you not entertain the idea of absence of Rūpa in the state of the sage described there? :slight_smile:

As far as I know, metrically they should roll the same, so I don’t think there’s a poetic reason that one is substituted for another, no?

DN 15 has this interesting bit:

Yehi, ānanda, ākārehi yehi liṅgehi yehi nimittehi yehi uddesehi nāmakāyassa paññatti hoti, tesu ākāresu tesu liṅgesu tesu nimittesu tesu uddesesu asati api nu kho rūpakāye adhivacanasamphasso paññāyethā”ti?

“No hetaṁ, bhante”.

“Yehi, ānanda, ākārehi yehi liṅgehi yehi nimittehi yehi uddesehi rūpakāyassa paññatti hoti, tesu ākāresu …pe… tesu uddesesu asati api nu kho nāmakāye paṭighasamphasso paññāyethā”ti?

“No hetaṁ, bhante”.

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You’re right, thanks. Nāmakāya (collections of names) has a slight difference from from nāmarūpa (name and form), the “form” part is actually semantically superfluous there so nāmakāya may be used as-is from Pāli without change of meaning. I’ve updated the translation now. Apart from sleepiness, I have no reason why I read nāmakāya as nāmarūpa.

Adhimutto not Vimutto

By the way I support the adhimukto/adhimutto reading as well, and I have used it, although the Pali has vimutto which appears to be an orthographic corruption, specifically if it is not found in the Nirdeśa commentary.

The next verse has vimuktaḥ, so the early scribe thought it appropriate to read vimuktaḥ in the prior verse too, specially as they look similar in the earlier Kharoṣṭhī script in which the language was written before it was converted to the Brāhmī script.

paramevimukto (1st line) vs parame’dhimukto (2nd line) in Kharoṣṭhī script (to be read right to left):


(see this, this, this, this & this for more relevant info)

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