Some help with 中古發音

Q & A
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Hi, @cdpatton (or anyone else who wants to have a stab at this)! I have a quick question I need help with.

You’re familiar with the Mahānidāna Sutta and its parallels. In the opening passages of MĀ 97, the 大因經, when describing the transmigratory plight of sentient beings by way of similes, there’s this sentence:

令彼眾生如織機相鎖

which resonates with the following image appearing a line or two down:

從此世至彼世，從彼世至此世，往來不能出過生死

My first instinct is to take 相鎖 as attempting to communicate something akin to 穿梭. While, metaphorically, I could see the imagery of the warp and weft of the thread on a loom closing in from two sides as 相鎖, the 往來 down below seems to me to argue against it, and I would argue that the image of shuttling back-and-forth is a little closer at hand. Now (from a modern Mandarin perspective in any case), there is the 近音 relationship between 鎖 and 梭. I’m wondering, though, if they were close enough in 中古 to qualify as a 假借. The few online charts I consulted didn’t seem to discount it, though I’m really not an expert, I could be misreading them. You are an expert, however. In addition, you’ve got all the resources right at your fingertips. So, once again I lay my troubles at your doorstep, sir.

Also, should you have any other ideas, I’d wholeheartedly welcome them.

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What is 中古 in the history of Chinese writing and words for 近音 in connection with 大因經 MA97?

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中古 - medieval Chinese (the language after the Han, up to and including the Tang)
近音 - near-homophones (words probably sharing the same or similar finals but different initials, or words wholly homophonous in sound differing only in tones)
大因經 - MA 97 where the words I’m asking about (鎖 and 梭) are found

Thanks for asking.

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My Gakken dictionary says that 鎖 and 梭 are homophones until modern Mandarin, which distinguishes them with different tones. They were both pronounced sua in Early Middle Chinese, which was the period when MA was translated. In Mandarin today, 鎖 is suŏ and 梭 is suō.

I would guess 相鎖 refers to the weaving of the threads by the weaver’s shuttle 織機. Which does go back and forth like a being going back and forth between realms of rebirth … 鎖 usually means chains or locks, but it can also be the verb for what chains and locks do: bind, close, or confine something, which seems more appropriate here: “mutual binding (of threads)” = weaving. Quite the metaphor.

For an added bit of trivia, I discovered while checking the meaning of 相鎖 that in modern times it’s a technical term in electronics for “phase lock” in which two signals are kept synchronized – like threads that are woven together.

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Thanks, @cdpatton!

I indeed found the sua pronunciation, but there was more information on the charts which I couldn’t read, information which seemed to say that, at an earlier point in time, the two may have had different initials (then, again, I’m also no expert in reading these charts): hence, my need to confirm with you.

If they were, as you say, completely homophonous in pre-modern times–especially way back in the pre-Tang era that I’m looking at–then I’m certainly going to posit that they were essentially one word, at least in this context: the differing characters notwithstanding. 假借 has to do with written characters, not orality.

And that resolves my quandary: it’s not, finally, whether it was the “mutual binding” of the warp and weft or the back-and-forth of the shuttle but both, as they point to very the same phenomenon. Thank you once again!

(On the subject of a twofold, “mutual binding” and its relationship to rebirth, there’s also the metaphor of the two strongmen pinning a weak man between them to toss him into a pit of burning coals. It’s used in multiple contexts, as I recall, but the one most relevant here is when it’s used to represent karmic rebirth.)

Lastly, can I ask you to post the full title of your Gakken dictionary and perhaps any other materials I might be able to get my hands on while I’m here in Japan? I might as well learn to stand on my own two.

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It’s this one: Amazon.co.jp: 学研漢和大字典: 机上版 : 藤堂 明保: Japanese Books

I think there’s disagreements on Old Chinese readings. It’s much more speculative than the later eras because there are no rhyme books that go back that far (as far as I know, at least!).

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It is classified as four tones(四聲), namely Ping 平, Shang 上, Qu 去, Ru 入,

鎖 is for tone ‘Shang 上’, denoted as ‘蘇果切‘

while 梭 is for tone ‘Ping 平’, denoted as ‘蘇禾切‘.

My opinions are: 鎖 and 梭 are quite different both in writing and reading.

It is quite rare to write 鎖 as 梭 by mistakes, if not none.

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Thank you very much, @KenSu. This is a far more comprehensive answer. If your 反切 reconstruction is accurate, then, yes, they would be quite far from each other phonetically and difficult to confuse.

Can you recommend either an online apparatus or perhaps modern reference books I can use for a quick lookup like that? Chinese or English, it doesn’t matter.

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The best way to check pronunciation of any single Chinese character(漢字 han-zi) is the website of 小學堂(Xiaoxuetang).

To my personal opinions, the reconstruction of ancient “Chinese reading“ is less reliable, we can trust more or less on “廣韻 Guang-yun“, for example 鎖 (, 小學堂廣韻 ,) and 梭.

The book “廣韻 Guang-yun“ was composed by CE 1008, which means it is not fully capable to investigate the pronunciation of a word for Buddhist texts translated before it.

In our field, we looked up books such as

  1. 《一切經音義》卷9：「吁與(許于反說文驚語也廣雅吁應聲也吁亦疑怪之辭也經文有作說與也)。」(CBETA, T54, no. 2128, p. 361, c8)
  2. 說文
  3. 玉篇
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《一切經音義》卷11：「鉤鎖(苟侯反。《考聲》：『求也，取也。』《說文》：『曲也。』《廣雅》：『引也。』『下，桑果反。《考聲》：『連環也。』經作鏁，俗字也)。」(CBETA, T54, no. 2128, p. 374, b22)
《一切經音義》 is composed by CE 807, and it was done by several buddhist monks. It said ‘鎖’ is pronounced as “桑果反” (Here, the meaning of ‘反’ is exactly the same as ‘切’.)
《一切經音義》卷58：「擲梭(…, 先戈反。謂織梭行緯者也)。」(CBETA, T54, no. 2128, p. 697, c5)
It said ‘梭’ is pronounced as “先戈反” .
A better and reliable way to check its tone(Ping 平, Shang 上, Qu 去, Ru 入) is check it against “廣韻 Guang-yun“.

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Thank you very much @KenSu for the dictionary names and the links.

You’ve been very helpful, indeed!

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The homepage of 小學堂 is here, since I am a newcomer, it does not allow me to put links more than one.

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While I can’t say I regret the journey, knowing that, had I found this at the time, I would’ve been that much poorer for not having had this engagement (including learning about all those encyclopedic websites @KenSu shared and, on @cdpatton’s recommendation, going out and buying a Gakken dictionary!), I do feel somewhat foolish at this point, having made such a juvenile error.

I had forgotten that the appendix to Vetter’s “Zwei Schwierige Stellen im Mahānidānasutta” has an English translation by Zürcher of the opening nidāna of the An Shigao version (T 14) of the Mahānidāna Sutta. It’s just a small snippet, but it has An’s version of our weaver’s loom simile. I checked it, and most noticeable was that Zürcher actually included the word “shuttle” in his translation: noticeable because 梭 appears nowhere in An’s original.

The T 14 simile consists of these seven characters: 如織機躡撰往來. I’ll spare you the details of how much sweat I vainly poured out over 躡撰: all the reference materials and all the variant characters for the phrase 躡撰 I sifted through. Zürcher’s “shuttle” was footnoted, saying, “Read suo instead of zhuan, with all versions except the Korean.” So, I checked CBETA and, sure enough, there was the footnote: 撰【大】，梭【宋】【元】【明】. Looking back over old notes, now, I see that this, too, I had noticed before and had forgotten. (Again, an oversight I am much richer for having made.)

Taking this albeit circumstantial evidence into account, just chalking all of this up to coincidental affinities becomes more difficult. We have to consider the possibility of a direct historical connection between 鎖 and 梭 to go along with whatever phonetic one we propose.

At this point, then, it seems to me that the most logical conclusion is that the source texts for both versions tallied in reading something which implied the workings of a shuttle, that Saṅghadeva originally translated 相梭, and that 相鎖 was the result of a subsequent error in transmission based on phonetic proximity: an error which took place so early that no other variant reading appears in any extant edition of the text.

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I literally spend hours on some words or passages in these older EBT translations researching every angle possible, including any Indic language parallels. It’s par for the course. It just means you’re doing it right by exhausting all the resources available.

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about “躡撰” of T14，the variant is: 撰＝梭【宋】【元】【明】。
Be that as it may, the eminent monk Xuan-Ing(玄應, CE 600?-660), who is the translation assistant of Xuan-zang(玄奘, CE 602-664), kept a record of this very two characters.
《一切經音義》卷52：「《人本欲生經》 (音義pronunciation and meaning of a specific word done by Xuan-Ing)玄應撰
躡㯢(字體作[…。《說文》機下足所履也；下＂士眷反＂㯢，聚也)。」(CBETA, T54, no. 2128, p. 657, c4-5)。
This character is “木-巽”，not “撰”。 “木-巽” is a rare character, not being used popularly. For a weaving machine, 躡 is a stepper, and “木-巽” is a device to hold the shuttle.
By the way, I had published an article two years ago to demonstrate that variants of 【宋】【元】【明】 are not always ‘correct’."
【 On Errors Ascribed to the Editor’s Notes of Taishō Tripitaka: Examples Enumerated from Volume I & II】

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One of my methods of researching obscure terms is to search all of CBETA for the term or any variants that occur to me (or that occur in Taisho, etc). And yes, the glossaries in the back of the Taisho are sometimes a godsend for getting a better grasp of meanings, and here you’ve shown how sometimes there are variant readings evident in the glossaries. There are several of them that can contain very useful glosses and explanations. Quotations of passages sometimes provide that kind of evidence, too. Searching for a whole phrase can sometimes turn up quotations or parallel passages. CBETA is really an amazing resource that puts the entire corpus at our fingertips. I definitely recommend that as one of the many ways to research a passage fully.

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Sorry, due to my lack of Chinese I’m not 100% following the thread, but am I right that there’s a passage in MA 97 that has the idea of a shuttle or a loom, which is absent from the pali?

I ask because this is a really prominent image in the Bṛhadāraṇyaka Upaniṣad.

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Precisely, Bhante.

Three of the five Mahānidāna versions feature the loom imagery, but there’s some contention.

MĀ 97 mentions the loom, but not necessarily the shuttle (though this is one of the points of contention); T 14 has the explicit mention of a shuttle, though not in every recension (and that is the second point of contention). And, obviously, DN 15 (along with SN 12.60 and AN 4.199) has the imagery of thread which the commentary expressly associates with a weaver.

The mention of the shuttle is important because its back-and-forth movement would seem to be the most likely vehicle for the comparison to transmigration. (Though the operation of the foot pedals appears to be significant as well [and perhaps the coming together of the threads into a cloth?].)

Please, kindly share the Upaniṣad metaphor. I’d love to hear it.

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From Olivelle’s translation of Bṛhadāraṇyaka Upaniṣad 3.6.1.

The relevant Sanskrit is otaś ca protaś ceti, “sewn lengthwise and crosswise” or “warp and woof”.

Then Gargi Vacaknavi began to question him. “Yajnavalkya,” she said, “tell me—since this whole world is woven back and forth on water, on what, then, is water woven back and forth?”

“On air, Gargi.”

“On what, then, is air woven back and forth?”

“On the worlds of the intermediate region, Gargi.”

“On what, then, are the worlds of the intermediate region woven back and forth?”

“On the worlds of the Gandharvas, Gargi.”

“On what, then, are the worlds of the Gandharvas woven back and forth?”

“On the worlds of the sun, Gargi.”

“On what, then, are the worlds of the sun woven back and forth?”

“On the worlds of the moon, Gargi.”

“On what, then, are the worlds of the moon woven back and forth?”

“On the worlds of the stars, Gargi.”

“On what, then, are the worlds of the stars woven back and forth?”

“On the worlds of the gods, Gargi.”

“On what, then, are the worlds of the gods woven back and forth?”

“On the worlds of Indra, Gargi.”

“On what, then, are the worlds of Indra woven back and forth?”

“On the worlds of Prajapati, Gargi.”

“On what, then, are the worlds of Prajapati woven back and forth?”

“On the worlds of brahman, Gargi.”

“On what, then, are the worlds of brahman woven back and forth?”

At this point Yajnavalkya told her: “Don’t ask too many questions, Gargi, or your head will shatter apart! You are asking too many questions about a deity about whom one should not ask too many questions. So, Gargi, don’t ask too many questions!”

Thereupon, Gargi Vacaknavi fell silent.

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